Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap2
May 16, 2006 12:46 am
It nearly looks the same. Gloss vinyl is approximately 1mm thick and as a consequence, it hides some detail routing to your doors. (you cant get sharp corners in fielded door patterns).
As a kitchen manufacturer of 10 years I would advise you to stay away from vinyl as it does not like heat at all (especially from ovens, toasters and the steam from kettles). Sometimes the glue deteriorates over time and the vinyl peels away from the door substrate.
Next time you read a vinyl door manufacturers brochure look for their guarantee. You will find that they guarantee their doors for 7 years only.
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap3
Mar 12, 2007 9:26 am
Can you also inform me about the advantages of 2 pack. How does it handle cleaning greasy areas? does it come in matt as well as gloss? My builder's studio has a glossy finish but I am aware that scratches can be visible on such surfaces.
Is it cheaper than vinyl wrap? Can you recommend a showroom(Melbourne- Eastern) to look at the colours available in 2 pack.Is it the same as emporite? I am not particularly keen about vinyl wrap as my present kitchen started to peel in 5 yrs.
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap4
Mar 12, 2007 10:59 am
This is just based on our builder's selection studio...
They said that cheapest is the laminates, dearest (and apparently a LOT) is the 2 pac. In between these two extremes were matt and gloss and crystal heat shrunk moulded laminates (all one piece with the joins at the back rather than on the edges), wood (tas oak), then lastly the 2 pac. The lady said that unless you REALLY want the 2 pac then it may not be worth the price as a similar result can be achieved from the heat shrunk moulded gloss laminates.
Second Time 'Round
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap6
Mar 14, 2007 4:55 pm
As I said - it was only explained to us at the builders' show room, so I'm by no means an expert... but they said that on normal laminate cupboards they put strips on the edges (as in one piece for the front, one piece for the top edge, one piece for the side edges and one piece on the bottom edge - so you'd have laminate joins on all the vertices (where the faces meet) however with the shrink laminates it was one piece that was wrapped over all sides and only had a join on the inside panel of the door (similar to how you'd "contact" a book I'd imagine). I do believe the company was parbury, and I may have it wrong... as I said - only hearsay.
Second Time 'Round
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap8
Mar 15, 2007 12:31 pm
"on normal laminate cupboards they put strips on the edges (as in one piece for the front, one piece for the top edge, one piece for the side edges and one piece on the bottom edge - so you'd have laminate joins on all the vertices (where the faces meet)"
If you were actually getting laminated doors this would be the case, however doors and boards are less frequently laminated these days.
More conventional is to cut the doors from pre coated boards and to edge them with a matching 2mm PVC (or similar) edge strip.
These edges are not trimmed back like laminate would be and therefore the joins are not as obvious - the result is actually a very minimal hairline.
There are some gloss colour boards available now which also have a "two pack like" finish - the only restriction with these boards is that they are flat only and can not be routed for a profiled edge or face.
As has been said above, although thermolaminate (vinyl wrap) is frequently touted as a cheaper solution to two pack, it is not really comparable.
Vinyl is softer than two pack and has been known to delaminate when exposed to steam and heat.
Two Pack is more durable but it is still brittle and can chip relatively easily, especially on sharp edges. Just go out and look at the edges of your car door to see what I mean.
To paraphrase the builders showroom attendant, If you
really want gloss profiled doors then go for two pack, otherwise you could be well off considering a flat board.
Struming Design - Industrial Design
Kitchen Design; Kitchen Supply; DIY Kitchens
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap10
Mar 19, 2007 6:14 pm
Why is 2 pack the most expensive? It's only paint, isn't it?
yes its only paint ,but speciallised paint ,its used on your car,and surfaces that are meant to last ,its a polyurethane coating that requires the aplicators to be in atmostpheric suits ,totally dust free ,this stull kills people that dont use the correct protective equiptment ,you never see old plasterers ,tilers,spraypainters ,and the reason is the have been affected by their trade when you dont do the above ,you will die
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap11
Mar 19, 2007 6:15 pm
Why is 2 pack the most expensive? It's only paint, isn't it?
yes its only paint ,but speciallised paint ,its used on your car,and surfaces that are meant to last ,its a polyurethane coating that requires the aplicators to be in atmostpheric suits ,totally dust free ,this stuff kills people that dont use the correct protective equiptment ,you never see old plasterers ,tilers,spraypainters ,and the reason is the have been affected by their trade when you dont do the above ,you will die
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap12
Mar 20, 2007 8:30 am
Yes, that's right it is specialised paint. It's baked enamel. It is applied to the surfaces and baked on. This process hardens the paint (or cures it). From my understanding it is baked a few times and that's why the process takes so long. Believe me, with little children with freedom (not running a muck) can enjoy being in a kitchen with me and I experience no chips, scratches etc. However that doesn't mean that it doesn't chip or scratch, it will, but it takes a lot of hard knocks.
It's the ultimate in kitchens, it class, expensive, but yet hard wearing and long lasting.
the paint is only baked to speed up the curing process ,it is a two part process and will cure itself just as well if its baked or just left to cure
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap14
Mar 28, 2007 11:36 am
Ive had both and 2-pac is far superior.
When we built our house 10 years ago Vinyl Wrap was sold to us as the latest and greatest which allowed for routed shapes etc.
We got a sort of off white colour and I suppose after about 8 years areas around the stove and microwave started to sepearate and peel. Also it suffered the "yellowing"effect but this wasn't too noticable unless you knew the original colour.
We recently replaced all the doors/kickboards etc with 2-pac for about $3k and so far are extremely happy and I believe it's a far superior product.
The worst area for grease was around the Rangehood and it just wipes off very easily whereas I believe the vinyl took a bit more elbow grease.
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap16
Apr 11, 2007 11:42 pm
Personally, I'd never want something as toxic as 2 Pac in my home!
See http://www.csiro.au/files/mediarelease/ ... chrome.htm for info on the toxicity of new homes generally, and info from one of a number of websites on natural paint products at http://www.energyandwatersolutions.com.au/natural.htm. There's also good stuff on indoor pollution at www.greenhouse.gov.au/yourhome/technical/fs33.htm
I'm looking at hoop pine and similar renewable resources for our kitchen and will be finishing them with a plant based product. There are now also some very funky recycled plastics around - these are inert, so no offgassing.
yours for a healthy home
Polyurethane VS Thermolaminate Vinyl VS Melamine18
Jan 05, 2008 1:22 am
I found this topic very useful when trying to decide what to use for doors for my new kitchen. However I would love to get more input/suggestions from people.
Currently I have a choice of using Polyurethane (Australian made quality, not sure what brand), Thermolaminate(Polytec) and Melamine(Polytec sheen, which is gloss finish with PVC edges) for doors.
My kitchen is of a fairly std size. I have been quoted for Melamine and have been told Poly will cost $2.5K to 3K more. I have not asked how much for Thermolaminate but I would presume it would be somewhere in between.
What I am after is gloss and also easiness to clean. I have young kids so weakness to impact would be fatal.
Based on the cost difference above, would most people definitely go for Poly or would think Melamine (I think it is same as Laminate, just confirming) is good enough?
Also, has anyone used Polytec Thermolaminate for doors and actually had peeling issues? Also anyone who used Melamine with bad experiences? (I am thinking Melamine, if its gloss, is as much easy to clean as Poly?)
Your feedback is much appreciated!
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap19
Jan 16, 2008 4:01 am
I have been making kitchens for about 20 years now. And simply refuse to use vinyl or vacuum doors any more.
We put a white vyinal kitchen in our showroom when they first came to Australia from Europe, About 1995 from memory (as the manufacturers give you the doors for free) so after 1.5 to 2 years we sold off the kitchen to upgrade the showroom. (As you do) The feedback we were getting in that time was enough to start us steering customers away from vacuum.
But even in the short time the showroom kitchen had been in, the colour degrading was very bad.
Basically the process they use is the same as when they pack savoloys or frankfurts. Suck the air out and the heated plastic shrinks around the shape.
And that is the problem. Plastic OR fancy name "Thermo laminate" is not a stable product. Ultraviolet rays in sunlight affects the colour stability and brittleness of the plastic . And the plastic or foils as they call them move or don't stick easily to the substrate.
Yes the price is sometimes right and they look great when new but who wants to make or have a kitchen that only lasts a few years?
I’m tired of been asked to go and look at peoples vacuum kitchen to see "if I can do any thing to fix them up.
Very generally and to a certain degree, (Doublespeak for varying factors) I find gloss polyurethane and gloss vacuum similar in price
Now gloss polyurethane I love.
Pick a colour, any colour. And if you want to be insanely decadent pick a metallic red or blue, whatever turns you on.
But if you’re sensible just pick a plain solid colour that you can live with for the next 30 years because with proper care it will last that long or longer.
In my experience Gloss has fallen from favour a bit in the last 3-5 years with people asking for satin polyurethane of various levels. 30% 60% etc. but gloss to me always looks good, and the beauty is, if a door gets damaged in ten years time or you want to add to the kitchen and you can't remember who made it. Just take the door to the local spray painter, get it colour matched ($80) and viola!! It’s a perfect match! (Another reason for going for plain doors is so you don't have to match the grooves)
I'm not sure but I think some colour matching machines do gloss levels or satin matching as well.
As for cleaning, again gloss is beautiful. Just wipe down with warm slightly soapy water, and for a streak free look, dry with a soft cloth. For scuffs or that oily scum around the range hood, car polish the non abrasive type is perfect.
Don’t use it on satin doors as it will leave a shinny spot.
According to my spray painter all the paint mobs ( watyle, Evic, Pylon etc) do a furniture grade, 2 pack polyurethane. Very similar to car paint but supposedly more flexible.
I know a lot of kitchen guys still gladly flog (Sell) Vacuum. Little and big,. And seem to think it’s a good product. How ever I think if you speak to any one who has been in the game for a while. I.e. not selling cars or TV’s a year ago they will probably keep away from vinyl
But others probably have a different slant on the product to me.
So anyway this is only my opinion and I hope this helps you out.
Re: 2 pack poly vs vinyl wrap20
Jan 16, 2008 8:57 am
Great post. It's good to get an expert opinion.
I'm sold on polyurethane, but was led to believe that it is significantly more expensive than vinyl. You mentioned that you "find gloss polyurethane and gloss vacuum similar in price". Does this apply only to the gloss finish or is independent of finish?
As you've mentioned I like polyurethane since it is heat tolerant, readily colour matched (and therefore repaired if need be), can follow any contour, comes in any colour you like and is harder wearing. I thought price was a downside, but maybe that is not the case. The only other downside is that I've been led to believe that polyurethane is prone to chipping. Being a hard surface if the inevitable kitchen item knocks it, it can chip. What's your opinion on this?
In the extreme case of chipping, I've heard that a draw or door can be removed and recoated.
Anyway, I've specified polyurethane for my upcoming kitchen and have yet to find something better to take its place.
Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010
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