Flooring or kitchen fitting, what comes first?

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 3:15 pm

We are doing a complete replace of our kitchen, including the flooring to the kitchen/diner/hallway. The flooring will be DIY tiles, and the kitchen will be a DIY flatpack (Australian made of course!) incorporating a walk-in pantry.

The first question is, which to do first? The kitchen company suggested doing the tiles first, the tiling supplier suggested installing the kitchen first.

The second question is whether to remove the existing stuck down lino from the concrete floor. It's in sound condition and is stuck down well. If remove is the answer, what is the best way? The house is 16 years old, so there should be no issues with asbestos. A point to consider here is that the kitchen layout is changing and the hallway already has been stripped back to the concrete slab.

I'm hoping someone knowlegeable out there will help with this chicken and egg dilema. Any other tips or suggestions?

Many thanks,

Ruth

royalblue · Jul 22, 2007 3:30 pm

In my mind, it's clear.......... Install the kitchen first. The tiles will need to be laid up to the base of your kitchen. I can't think of any reason to do it the other way!

It's your home, but tiles? Not what I'd choose!

BTW, don't assume that because it's an aussie flatpack, it is VOC free. It's likely to off-gas significant VOC's for the first months at least, so use proper PPE and plenty of ventilation when constructing the kitchen.

Good luck with it all.

Ash.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 3:59 pm

Thanks Ash, but why not tiles? We have been advised against floating flooring in the kitchen and we don't really like vinyl. I've seen many tiled kitchens and they look lovely and are practical to keep clean. I've lived in rented houses in the past where unsealed bricks (impossible to keep clean) and even CARPET have been used in the kitchen area :shock:

. Needless to say the greedy landlord charged like a wounded bull for cleaning the carpet when we moved out, even though the stains would have been impossible to remove. Believe me we tried. The kitchen was tiny anyway, about 2m sq of carpet which would be an offcut to any landlord worth his salt.

The question of the VOC is one that I have mostly researched through this forum, as initially we were tempted by a cheaper Chinese kitchen :evil:

. The materials from the kitchen supply company are all Australian and therefore I must assume pass the Australian standards. The base of the boards are from Europe, where I believe they have higher regulation standards than Australia (is this possible?)

Please elaborate what PPE is? Is it protection of some kind? How can I tell whether this kichen will contain VOC's?

I guess we will just have to work out exactly where the kitchen will be and tile to there. Has anyone tiled the room completely and then put the kitchen on top?

royalblue · Jul 22, 2007 4:24 pm

Hi Ruth,

I can't presume to say what is the best floorcovering for you and your decor, but here's a few thoughts.........

The areas you are talking about are high use areas (especially the kitchen). Standing for long periods on a hard floor is not kind on your feet or back. Yet carpets are impractical (except for flocked carpets like Flotex or Walkertex, but you may not like them).

The best compromise is a quality cork floor. There are different shades & textures, including cream or pinky tones available, if you don't like the natural honey toned cork finish. They have very user-friendly qualities that make cork floors an excellent choice. Another option worth considering is the Marmoleum range. Very practical and attractive without a lot of the VOC's associated with vinyls.

Tiles can certainly be attractive. But they are hard and unforgiving, can chip, and the grout does soil and can be stained. They can be far more maintenance than you may realise. I clean both tiles and carpets professionally. I would charge and average of $3.30 per sq/m for carpets, but about $5.50 for tiles!

PPE= personal protective equipment.

Removing old vinyl can be done with a shovel, or a specialised tool used by pros.

Ash.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 5:17 pm

I lived with cork floors once and it was my job to clean and seal them every few months with a big heavy machine and lots of special products. Yes, they were attractive, quiet and didn't break things too often when stuff was dropped on them, but they showed signs of wear in the high traffic areas. I don't know how old they were.

As this house is an investment rennovation, I don't want to pay twice as much for flooring than we would for the tile option. I think they are about $60 per sqm. I'm not convinced that the prospective buyer will appreciate the additional cost. I'll definately keep cork in mind if rennovating my dream home in the future.

Thanks for the advice on removing the old lino sheet.

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 6:20 pm

Ok, I do this every day of my life so I will give it to you straight.

With tiles it doesnt make any difference weather you do it before or after the kitchen is installed. Royal blue is totally wrong here!

Floating timber floors should be done before because you have to leave a 10mm expansion gap where the floor meets walls or kickboards. If you put the floor down after you also have to put cork or a moulding to cover the expansion gap which looks crap.

The existing lino should be removed before any flooring is put down.

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 6:23 pm

Ruth

We have been advised against floating flooring in the kitchen

Any ideas why?????

I have installed 4 floating floors in kitchens myself and installed 1000s of kitchens ontop of floating floors.

There isnt a problem as long as you use a good quality ply substarte floor and choose a hard wearing timber.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 6:37 pm

Thanks cutting edge. The floating floors can swell up if they get wet and insurance companies hate them! We have put floating floors in the lounge and all three bedrooms, so the tiles will be butting up to these. I guess we will have to use some kind of join between the two , which will depend on the thickness of the tiles we chose.

I'm thinking it may be tricky to tile inside the pantry once it's installed, but it would probably be more convenient to install the kitchen then lay the tiles. This way we could install half the kitchen, move stuff across from the old one, demolish the old one, then finish installing the kitchen. What a work up. It would be easier if we didn't try and live here with small children at the same time!!!

The alternative would be to remove the lot, floor the entire kitchen and then install the new kitchen on top. Is this crazy?

There is also the question on whether to tile on the diagonal or go for the (presumably) quicker parallel with the wall option. Our substrate is concrete slab which, if like the rest of the house, is in great condition.

MaylandsManor · Jul 22, 2007 6:42 pm

what about solid timber floors in the kitchen? are these hard-wearing and practical compared with floating floors? we are looking at having oak floorboards (on joists). These would obviously need to go down before the kitchen cupboards. but how do you cover up the join between the cupboards and floorboard? thanks
Helen

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 6:53 pm

MaylandsManor

what about solid timber floors in the kitchen? are these hard-wearing and practical compared with floating floors? we are looking at having oak floorboards (on joists). These would obviously need to go down before the kitchen cupboards. but how do you cover up the join between the cupboards and floorboard? thanks
Helen

Solid timber is always better, but only because you can repolish it many many times. With floating timber floors you can only repolish 2 or 3 times.

As far as if timber is better or worse than floating floors as far as the wear factor. Assuming you use the same timber it will wear exactly the same.

I would never use the MDF backed fake timber floating floors.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 7:10 pm

Solid timber floors? :shock:

When I had this house inspected by the termite man with his sniffer dog, it had two rooms with varnished timber floors on batten joists. He advised that they should be removed due to the potential of termites, white ants and other problems. He recommended floating floors (we don't do carpet) instead. We followed his recommendation and I'm glad we did.

When we removed the wooden floors, underneath there were redbacks, other yucky spiders, huge bugs I didn't know existed and mushrooms! Even after studying mycology I didn't recognise these specimens. Removing these floors exposed evidence of water ingress from the adjoining bathroom. It took weeks to dry out the concrete slab, which had suffered some water damage, once the cause had been addressed.

I've had original timber floors in a Victorian house in London and they are great. You can strip and polish them and they are beautiful, but I would be aware of the downside of using them in a house built on a slab, and proceed with caution.

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 7:25 pm

You will still get spiders and termites. Remember most houses have timber joists and bearers.

Best thing you can do is make sure you have ant caps and spray yearly for spiders and also have a yearly inspection for termites.

I work on multi-million dollar houses every day of the week. They never use floating floors. If the want timber then they use solid timber.

If you can afford it solid timber is much longer lasting than a floating floor.

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 7:27 pm

Ruth

but I would be aware of the downside of using them in a house built on a slab, and proceed with caution.

No downside at all if done properly. It should be batterened atleast 50mm above the slab there for avoiding water problems and pest problems can also be avoid if done right.

As usual there are alot of cowboys that dont do things right and people get the wrong idea becuase of there mistakes.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 7:30 pm

My sister has one of those houses in Artarmon and has just put down some timber floors in her new extension.

But I'm the poor little sister who's lower in the property ladder (my house cost only 2/3 of what her extension did) and renovating to sell in the Adelaide hills. Solid timber floors would be overcapitalising on this house.

I appreciate what you are saying though about the timber floors.

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 7:38 pm

No problems. Just letting people know the real story.

I would never put timber or a floating floor in a rental. But they can add value to a house that you live in or intend to sell and are quick and easy to do.

I find in my industry there are alot of people(trade and home owners) that talk loudly and give there opions. But alot of the time they are not based on fact.

I fight an on going battle righting mistakes and dispelling rumors made by poor tradesman and DIYs gone wrong.

Casa2 · Jul 22, 2007 7:48 pm

cuttingedgecabinets

No problems. Just letting people know the real story.

I would never put timber or a floating floor in a rental. But they can add value to a house that you live in or intend to sell and are quick and easy to do.

I find in my industry there are alot of people(trade and home owners) that talk loudly and give there opions. But alot of the time they are not based on fact.

I fight an on going battle righting mistakes and dispelling rumors made by poor tradesman and DIYs gone wrong.

Thanks for your efforts cuttingedgecabinets. Please keep up the "on going battle righting mistakes". We all appreciate it.

Michelle · Jul 22, 2007 8:11 pm

I just have a couple of things to add to this post.

I understand what you are saying cuttingedgecabinets, but I don’t see why anyone would want to lay flooring under cabinets when it will never be seen again. To me that’s a waist of flooring and money. I‘ve seen it done, this is a very rare thing, but a client of mine laid Slate under her cabinets……bad move, slate is never even, it look really bad. There were gaps everywhere.

I also would worry about the weight of kitchen cabinets with a solid stone, Granite or Cesastone bench tops on a floating floor. Some kitchens I have done have had the 40mm think tops that wrap down the sides and across the front, thats a lot of weight.

As much as I love the floating floors, I worry about their strength. I would hesitate to suggest to a client to put flooring down first when they are doing such heavy kitchen cabinets.

???

stonecutter1309 · Jul 22, 2007 8:28 pm

In our unit they tiled the entire floor then installed the kitchen. We only found out this when we removed one of the cabinets to install a dishwasher - it was nice and easy just to slide it right in.

Ruth · Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm

I really appreciate all the advice I can get, as I am no expert, hence my original posting. I've merely reitterated the advice of salesmen and pest inspectors.

I feel that the floating floors are the best for this house we have, and they have proved easy to lay and practical to live with. They are a definite improvement on the loose sheet of lino, manky cat wee-stained carpet and other floors we bought the house with. Most people who come here admire them, and they have long guarantees. But, we are opting for tiled floors in the kitchen/diner and hallway.

I've completely hijacked my own thread !!! Does everyone agree to put the kitchen or flooring in first?

cuttingedgecabinets · Jul 22, 2007 8:41 pm

Michelle

I just have a couple of things to add to this post.

I understand what you are saying cuttingedgecabinets, but I don’t see why anyone would want to lay flooring under cabinets when it will never be seen again. To me that’s a waist of flooring and money. I‘ve seen it done, this is a very rare thing, but a client of mine laid Slate under her cabinets……bad move, slate is never even, it look really bad. There were gaps everywhere.

I also would worry about the weight of kitchen cabinets with a solid stone, Granite or Cesastone bench tops on a floating floor. Some kitchens I have done have had the 40mm think tops that wrap down the sides and across the front, thats a lot of weight.

As much as I love the floating floors, I worry about their strength. I would hesitate to suggest to a client to put flooring down first when they are doing such heavy kitchen cabinets.

???

Sorry Michelle this is not quite right.

If you intened to live in the house for a long time then you might replace the kitchen at some stage. If its a timber or tiled floor and you have only gone up to the kick boards then you are limited to the same floor plan. Also if you spring a leek somewhere the water pools behind the kick board becuase the floor level under the cabinets is lower than the timber or tiled floor. The kicks dont stand a chance.

If you have seen gaps under the edge of a kick board to a tiled or timber floor then the kitchen manufacturer is a shonk. The bottom edge of the kickboard should be scirbed to suit the floor contours and shape. Its quick and easy to do and looks fantastic. The kicks should also be made from waterproof plywood.

Weight isnt a problem if the kickboards are done properly. Those stupid plastice legs can cause a problem, but with a properly constructed kitchen it isnt a problem. I have done 1000s of kitchens on sydneys northern beachs for multi million dollar homes and well know architects and 60-70% of the time the kitchen has gone down on the finished floor.

Seriously it can be done either way. But I believe the best way is to put your kitchen down ontop of you floor. Especially if its solid timber or tiles. Besuace the timber and tiled floors generally last longer than the kitchens.