Browse Forums Finishing Touch 1 Sep 01, 2012 9:46 am After repairing the 5th peeled ceiling this month there are a few things I feel compelled to point out. Firstly I have painted a lot of new homes , hundreds in fact, built by project builders in which for obvious reasons I will not be naming on here. Let’s just say these companies pump out houses by the thousands every year.... It is also important to point out that I was a staff member at the time and NOT the contractor involved with these companies. In Qld a few years ago the best price a painter could expect was $24 per sq/m inc. Gst (based on slab size) and now with the down turn in construction these same companies are offering $18 sq/m. To put that in context the houses we were painting were generally around 200 sq/m. The Sq/m price included eves, downpipes on a brick home. So based on $24 sq/m in the "Boom" time $4800 Total - $1200 Material - $480 GST - $2100 ( wages for 2 tradesman) - $300 (for a day’s touch ups for 1 guy after the other trades have mutilated walls etc...) Leaving the contractor with $800 or so... And now they are working for 18 sq/m... I'll let you do the maths. (unqualified kids painting these??) The point I am making is that for anyone to make a living at these rates (forget profit!!) is to cut corners, which finally has brought me to the point. EXPECT 2 x coats of ceiling flat sprayed finished directly onto the gyprock (you maybe spoilt if they are dusted down beforehand!).On ceilings I have NEVER seen Sealer used EVER in all the years I worked on these particular homes and for many different contractors. The latest house I looked at (12 years old) is so bad the ceilings are being completely re-sheeted and painted properly as the costs of scraping everything off are prohibitive! Most certainly you will have 1 x coat of sealer sprayed on your wallboard plaster joins with another coat covering the entire wall, followed by 1 x coat low sheen "back rolled" and that’s your lot! The extra plaster join coat is by no means a safety precaution, purely a way to hide the fact you only have 2 coats on your walls as plaster sucks the paint in a little more than the rest of the board and this method allows for a more even finish. One prospective company supervisor tried to sell it to me as a "2 & 1/2 coat system" can you believe and scoffed "allow 3 guys on touch ups" as there are usually 250-300 red spots at the end!!. You will also have only 2 x coats of "low sheen" (terrible to clean) on your eves. Look out for the picture framing on the wall and facia sides of the sheet... a sure indication. I was so incensed after hearing first hand from a paint representative that his particular company was colluding with the builders in using a "two coat" system with their product, even though it clearly states on their drum 3 coats! A lot of people would not know that the painter is NOT the one who recommends the paint brand.. It is the Builder whom has been courted by the paint companies and the best "prices"... Through there greed the paint companies are not there to help the painter ONLY the builder whom they have done the deal with. I could go on and on about that topic but won't now. So I called the BSA (Building services authority) in Qld and asked if there was an industry standard as to how many coats of paint are required for these new homes (hilarious considering I am a painter right!!) Their answer as usual..."Go back to the Builder as you have a contract with him" I have never built a new home with these companies so I do not know whether you the consumer are lucky enough to have these details in writing. It’s no wonder we have a shortage of tradespeople with these big builders tightening the noose on contractors. Have a look at Plasterers.... Crew of kids throwing up sheets, followed by a crew to set, followed by another crew of kids to cornice, followed by more kids sanding down... NONE of them can do a job from start to finish. It’s not their fault as the Contractor can't afford to pay good/tradesman at the prices offered in a lot of cases. I realise you cannot be at your home watching every minute of the day but there are a few questions to be asked. I would absolutely and utterly be specifying sealer on your ceilings and NOT taking their word for it. Most of us painters/tradies are good eggs but everything is done to cost. For the record I chose to leave this line of work for many reasons years ago and operate my own business successfully. Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 2Sep 01, 2012 10:26 am Well said, we were stupid enough to get our builder to paint rather than doing it ourselves - 6 months in virtually the entire house has had to be repainted. About time the woeful building practrices of these so called cutomer focussed builders were exposed. Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 3Sep 02, 2012 6:39 pm Hi Brisbane_Painter, Great thread. It is very true and is happening in other trades as well. It is the trade paints that get to me. Cheers PS Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 4Sep 02, 2012 9:03 pm Great thread, Brisbane_Painter and well done for splashing some light onto this issue! I can't believe how much the builder pays the painter! During our build, it happened by chance that one painter (whom I knew, sort of) offered that he paints the house and estimated some 16k, I think including materials (house is about 31 sq), but I think only internally, nothing outside. So according to what you get paid, do I understand correctly that builders would only pay about 31sq * say $20 = $620 ?!?! Something's not right in my calculations Unless you're not talking about the "squares of floor space" but rather about some other squares?? My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 5Sep 02, 2012 9:27 pm 31 square home = 288 square metres. However don't forget @ $ 20 per sqm metre it will be a very basic 2 coat job that will have to be done sooner rather than later. The $16k job should be a much much better job. As with most things in building, go for the mid range quote. I'm owner building a house at the moment and seriously thinking about painting the walls and ceiling myself and get a professional in to do everything else- doors, skirting board, architraves etc. what would a professional think about this? Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 6Sep 03, 2012 8:30 am Hi everyone, The particular houses I am talking about are your standard low set estate home 3-4 bedroom (ensuite, double garage, living, kitchen etc..) In QLD. For accuracy purposes I called one of these companies enquiring as a prospective contractor and was informed the sq/m rate was a poultry $18.50 by a female I am guessing was 24y.o..... She was pushing the same old barrow " theres not a lot on a the moment" Thus there excuse to drop the rate significantly because of the high numbers of contractors looking for work. You have to remember that 10 years ago in QLD when new houses were jumping out of the ground everywhere "brush hands" were demanding Tradesmans rates. There was a huge shortage of Tradesman and Contractors would take what they could get. I would estimate in my Trade that 70% of the guys I worked with (over 100 easily) in this time were not qualified. Other than the Supply and demand issue I assume there are a LOT of these guys still doing new houses because they are the only thing they no how to do.. So the competition is extremly tight at the moment and they take whatever is on offer to get through... I remember talking to a Sparky working on these homes and he mentioned that there was a new requirement for him. For every 2 apprentices there must be an accompanying Tradesman. Before this, his apprentices would be sent on their own to do the fit offs. (keep costs down) In retrospect I think this is a great idea and should be a requirment across "all trades" Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 7Sep 03, 2012 8:47 am [quote="Lex"]Great thread, Brisbane_Painter and well done for splashing some light onto this issue! I can't believe how much the builder pays the painter! During our build, it happened by chance that one painter (whom I knew, sort of) offered that he paints the house and estimated some 16k, I think including materials (house is about 31 sq), but I think only internally, nothing outside. So according to what you get paid, do I understand correctly that builders would only pay about 31sq * say $20 = $620 ?!?! Something's not right in my calculations Unless you're not talking about the "squares of floor space" but rather about some other squares?? [/quote Hi Lex, did the painter turn up in a Ferrari to do the qoute by any chance? 16k sounds a bit heavy for an internal only... (I would hope the materials are inclusive!!) 31Sqs = 288 sq/m as already mentioned (1sq = approx. 9.3 sq/m) So you are looking at $55 a sq/m at that figure. Its a figure I have never seen before. I don't know exactly the in an outs of your home but based on what you have said it can't be right. I know we are worth more than $20 sq/m but $55's a bit much. Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 8Sep 03, 2012 8:57 am JB1 31 square home = 288 square metres. However don't forget @ $ 20 per sqm metre it will be a very basic 2 coat job that will have to be done sooner rather than later. The $16k job should be a much much better job. As with most things in building, go for the mid range quote. I'm owner building a house at the moment and seriously thinking about painting the walls and ceiling myself and get a professional in to do everything else- doors, skirting board, architraves etc. what would a professional think about this? Hi JB1, As you would know the most important thing is the prep. If you are confident enough to this then go for it. Going back to my first post it is critical the ceilings are dusted and sealed, prefererably back rolled if you are spraying as the costs for this nasty little trick are "Massive" and uneccesary down the track. So me personally being a professional would not have a problem starting from where you left off. The price off course would depend upon the level of your prep. Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 9Sep 03, 2012 12:25 pm Duh!!! Of course it would have been in square METERS! I just looked at the "sq" part and that for me means "squares". I call square meters "m2" (professional deformation ) Yeah, his "offer" wasn't even asked for, he just offered it. We knew the builder was in charge of painting (part of volume builders deal) and so I didn't bother to ask for any clarifications. And no Porche! My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 10Sep 03, 2012 6:05 pm Lex Duh!!! Of course it would have been in square METERS! I just looked at the "sq" part and that for me means "squares". I call square meters "m2" (professional deformation ) Yeah, his "offer" wasn't even asked for, he just offered it. We knew the builder was in charge of painting (part of volume builders deal) and so I didn't bother to ask for any clarifications. And no Porche! Lex, Just remember... make sure the builders painters are backrolling sealer on your ceilings... demand it!!! if there are 3 drums or less of sealer in the skip out the front they haven't! Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 11Sep 03, 2012 6:41 pm Thanks ... but we're already done and dusted. I'm pretty sure they used no sealer anywhere. As someone mentioned, it's the famous (infamous?) two-coat system. Literally! Hmmm ... now it's a waiting game My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 12Sep 03, 2012 7:16 pm Brisbane_Painter Lex Duh!!! Of course it would have been in square METERS! I just looked at the "sq" part and that for me means "squares". I call square meters "m2" (professional deformation ) Yeah, his "offer" wasn't even asked for, he just offered it. We knew the builder was in charge of painting (part of volume builders deal) and so I didn't bother to ask for any clarifications. And no Porche! Lex, Just remember... make sure the builders painters are backrolling sealer on your ceilings... demand it!!! if there are 3 drums or less of sealer in the skip out the front they haven't! What is your preferred sealer? The paint shop guy said no real need and just apply 3 coats of good ceiling paint. For the walls 1 coat of ceiling paint and 2 coats of good wall paint. Your thoughts? Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 13Sep 04, 2012 8:14 am JB1 Brisbane_Painter Lex Duh!!! Of course it would have been in square METERS! I just looked at the "sq" part and that for me means "squares". I call square meters "m2" (professional deformation ) Yeah, his "offer" wasn't even asked for, he just offered it. We knew the builder was in charge of painting (part of volume builders deal) and so I didn't bother to ask for any clarifications. And no Porche! Lex, Just remember... make sure the builders painters are backrolling sealer on your ceilings... demand it!!! if there are 3 drums or less of sealer in the skip out the front they haven't! What is your preferred sealer? The paint shop guy said no real need and just apply 3 coats of good ceiling paint. For the walls 1 coat of ceiling paint and 2 coats of good wall paint. Your thoughts? I find that quite unbelievable that someone from a paint shop has told you that..... but believable at the same time.. I recently had a client purchase a leading brand paint from a big hardware.... against my wishes. After applying 3x coats of this "Ultra Premium" low sheen rubbish on top of a coat of sealer I could still see straight through it. When the client complained about the coverage a 19 year old girl told my client "It must be the painter not doing it properly" doing what properly I asked myself while laughing in disbelief... Anyway as for sealer or any paint for that matter I am not an advocate of any one in particular paint company and will not be naming them on here. What I will say is that I have been using "The last australian owned" paint companies material lately and think it is terrific. There is a HUGE difference in the components of undercoat and ceiling flat. (talc in ceiling white is the first thing that comes to mind. I have asked this question along with many others.... to an actual paint chemist. I can't be specific with the other materials off hand but you can call any of the big companies and they will tell you. There is a reason why they make/call this stuff undercoat. Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 14Sep 04, 2012 8:53 am Duh! Did I mention Binders.... Re: Peeling Ceilings becoming a more common problem 16Sep 22, 2012 6:29 am I bought my townhouse off the plan some 12 years ago. When I decided to repaint the place is discovered that they had not under coated or sealed, just slapped on some paint. The architraves just had some enamel, in some places I believe just one cost. The bannister on my stair case was the worst so much so I had to strip it and start again. I really feel that all wood trims in this place would be better off being stripped to get a good result. However, I continue to paint the place myself, patching, sanding, sealing along the way to get areasinable result. And friends who have built have had the same experience. If I ever built a new home or bought off the plan again, I would get the painting done myself whether I actually did the painting, or get a professional in to do the job properly. DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair At a bit of a loss on this one - we're thinking the original owners never removed the protective laminate covers from their kitchen cabinets after installation and in the… 0 6337 Thanks mate. Yeah good points! Leaning towards Option 3 to get a bit extra space in the cabinets but not going too crazy high (and expensive). Would require a mini… 13 39760 I was quoting framing timber sizes from Australian Standard AS1684.4 Table A13 for 2700mm wall heights Tile Roof, single storey. This Australian Standard doesn't refer to… 8 7343 |