builder construction quote details
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it seems most builders that I approached in Brisbane, give one lump sum for almost 90% of the total construction cost without any breakdown of individual cost item - How can I get detailed breakdown of individual cost to ensure the cost is competitive and not overpriced as most builders claim this is standard industry practice and refuse to give further breakdown of individual cost items?
Builder's quotation is builder's privileged information and you have no business knowing the details.
You can ensure competitiveness by shopping around and not seeking quote details.
Spend more time making sure you are comparing apples with apples.
You can ensure competitiveness by shopping around and not seeking quote details.
Spend more time making sure you are comparing apples with apples.
How can I get detailed breakdown of individual cost to ensure the cost is competitive and not overpriced as most builders claim this is standard industry practice and refuse to give further breakdown of individual cost items?
The boot is now on the other foot get your own design own copyright, ie. 3D Bim, data and shop around all prices are on the internet, tell the 3 Builders quoting to sharpen their pencils. Here
Design Question..?
LOL....Builders Privilege.. the builders should be so lucky to have access to the 3D Bim Data and programming
Cheers
Chris
Regardless of what details and data that you provide to a builder, they are only ever going to give you a lump sum.
And it is their right to do so.
Any retail experience is the same.
If you want a full breakdown of costs you have to become your on builder. Then you can break down the costs to the last nail if you like, but don't expect a builder to do it for you.
The only way you can get a true comparison of prices between builders is to own your own plans (building and structural) have a complete specifications list drawn up and take those to builders so everyone is quoting on exactly the same thing.
You will still just get a lump sum price but at least it is a fair comparison at that point.
Preliminary design drawings aren't good enough for quoting as there's enough scope for builders to be able to cut corners so as to give a cheap quote, then just ratchet the price when you realise they haven't included items or building methods that you want in your house.
And it is their right to do so.
Any retail experience is the same.
If you want a full breakdown of costs you have to become your on builder. Then you can break down the costs to the last nail if you like, but don't expect a builder to do it for you.
The only way you can get a true comparison of prices between builders is to own your own plans (building and structural) have a complete specifications list drawn up and take those to builders so everyone is quoting on exactly the same thing.
You will still just get a lump sum price but at least it is a fair comparison at that point.
Preliminary design drawings aren't good enough for quoting as there's enough scope for builders to be able to cut corners so as to give a cheap quote, then just ratchet the price when you realise they haven't included items or building methods that you want in your house.
Any retail experience is the same.
How so....the retail experience is completely different
In that you can return the product if it is defective, non compliant, materials are substituted, not as advertised,etc,etc
Battlers and Punters need to know all the "Costs, Data and Proofs.. Up front" in order to make informed decisions to purchase
LOL if clients insist on knowing how many nails are in the roof,
Calculating the roof timbers takes a dozen clicks here
Detailed sequence of trades and tasks
The initial trade breakdowns ie material pricing comes from here
Pine timber
Plant & Equipment Hire
Labour Constants and optimisation
etc,etc
Welcome to the Team
HTH
No it doesn't help.
Firstly the whole discussion around building quality and standards and rights for consumers is one that I agree needs to be addressed. But it's another discussion.
My point which obviously escaped you.
When you buy just about anything as an end consumer (retail) you don't have the right to know what all the various cost inputs are and basis for the price being offered.
You can certainly go on line and do some homework and work out what all of those may be but it doesn't give me the ability to demand that they tell me.
Your example of the nails is a mute point.
I can reverse engineer anything.
I can pull apart an iPhone work out exactly how much raw material is in it, how components and a rough labour input. Does that give me the right to walk into Apple and demand that they break down their costs for me so I can then demand a better price.
Or I can reverse engineer a Kia and a Ferrari.
If the Kia has the same amount of tyres, 3 more seats and 50000 more screws then surely the Ferrari should be cheaper. Can I head into the Ferrari dealer and request a complete breakdown as to how they have come to their price because I want to compare it to Kia's.
Ultimately the price is up to the company selling the product whether that be a phone, car or house. It's the consumers job to due their due diligence and try and make an informed decision based on a number of variables.
Sure, I'd recommend that everyone educate themselves and this is what this site is all about.
But to answer the OP's question and not get diverted with all the "proofs and data" talk.
No you can't expect a builder to break down his price. Follow the advice given, educate yourself as much as possible, get a number of builders to quote on the exact same plan and spec, check out their recent builds and speak to some clients. Then make an informed decision based on your needs.
Firstly the whole discussion around building quality and standards and rights for consumers is one that I agree needs to be addressed. But it's another discussion.
My point which obviously escaped you.
When you buy just about anything as an end consumer (retail) you don't have the right to know what all the various cost inputs are and basis for the price being offered.
You can certainly go on line and do some homework and work out what all of those may be but it doesn't give me the ability to demand that they tell me.
Your example of the nails is a mute point.
I can reverse engineer anything.
I can pull apart an iPhone work out exactly how much raw material is in it, how components and a rough labour input. Does that give me the right to walk into Apple and demand that they break down their costs for me so I can then demand a better price.
Or I can reverse engineer a Kia and a Ferrari.
If the Kia has the same amount of tyres, 3 more seats and 50000 more screws then surely the Ferrari should be cheaper. Can I head into the Ferrari dealer and request a complete breakdown as to how they have come to their price because I want to compare it to Kia's.
Ultimately the price is up to the company selling the product whether that be a phone, car or house. It's the consumers job to due their due diligence and try and make an informed decision based on a number of variables.
Sure, I'd recommend that everyone educate themselves and this is what this site is all about.
But to answer the OP's question and not get diverted with all the "proofs and data" talk.
No you can't expect a builder to break down his price. Follow the advice given, educate yourself as much as possible, get a number of builders to quote on the exact same plan and spec, check out their recent builds and speak to some clients. Then make an informed decision based on your needs.
Battlers and Punters can Do & Demand whatever they want, right up until they sign a contract (ie Fixed price, Cost plus, whatever)
If builders aren't interested then shop around, find one that is and negotiate a fair price, LOL Houses aren't Ferrari's nor are new home sales reps influencers
IMO, The building Industry is ripe for disruption
If builders aren't interested then shop around, find one that is and negotiate a fair price, LOL Houses aren't Ferrari's nor are new home sales reps influencers
IMO, The building Industry is ripe for disruption
Hi Chris. I've never bothered to take the time to respond to your numerous posts, but just thought I'd take the opportunity now.
You know I really enjoy your posts when you use your engineering skills to answer people's technical questions.
As an engineer you have a valuable skill set that can be used to enhance people's knowledge and assist in getting a good handle on the entire building process, as can many of the trade related experts on this site.
Unfortunately sometimes you seem to portray an elitist attitude that doesn't exactly help the OP but seems more about your pet love of BIM and engineering and "flexing" as the young folk say today.
You do realise that when you say:
"Battlers and Punters can Do & Demand whatever they want, right up until they sign a contract (ie Fixed price, Cost plus, whatever)
If builders aren't interested then shop around, find one that is and negotiate a fair price"
Is exactly what I said:
"Follow the advice given, educate yourself as much as possible, get a number of builders to quote on the exact same plan and spec, check out their recent builds and speak to some clients. Then make an informed decision based on your needs."
You seem to want to argue with people that give sound advice for the average "battlers and punters" as you love to say, when working together for the interests of all would be far more productive.
I tend to find in life that people that choose to argue with the minutiae of an illustration without looking at the general principle behind that illustration or analogy are either deliberately trying to ignore it or are unable to grasp big picture arguments.
I never compared a house to a Ferrari I was simply using it as an illustration as to why a Person shouldn't expect a Ferrari dealer to break down their prices, just as you can't expect a builder to do likewise.
Sure you are entitled to ask. Just don't expect a response.
There are many fine contributers on this site and you are certainly one of them. How about rather than pulling each other down with sniping we try and add value by sharing our knowledge of real world skills and application. That will help give the average folk the knowledge needed to make informed decisions during what is one of the biggest decisions they will ever make.
Cheers
You know I really enjoy your posts when you use your engineering skills to answer people's technical questions.
As an engineer you have a valuable skill set that can be used to enhance people's knowledge and assist in getting a good handle on the entire building process, as can many of the trade related experts on this site.
Unfortunately sometimes you seem to portray an elitist attitude that doesn't exactly help the OP but seems more about your pet love of BIM and engineering and "flexing" as the young folk say today.
You do realise that when you say:
"Battlers and Punters can Do & Demand whatever they want, right up until they sign a contract (ie Fixed price, Cost plus, whatever)
If builders aren't interested then shop around, find one that is and negotiate a fair price"
Is exactly what I said:
"Follow the advice given, educate yourself as much as possible, get a number of builders to quote on the exact same plan and spec, check out their recent builds and speak to some clients. Then make an informed decision based on your needs."
You seem to want to argue with people that give sound advice for the average "battlers and punters" as you love to say, when working together for the interests of all would be far more productive.
I tend to find in life that people that choose to argue with the minutiae of an illustration without looking at the general principle behind that illustration or analogy are either deliberately trying to ignore it or are unable to grasp big picture arguments.
I never compared a house to a Ferrari I was simply using it as an illustration as to why a Person shouldn't expect a Ferrari dealer to break down their prices, just as you can't expect a builder to do likewise.
Sure you are entitled to ask. Just don't expect a response.
There are many fine contributers on this site and you are certainly one of them. How about rather than pulling each other down with sniping we try and add value by sharing our knowledge of real world skills and application. That will help give the average folk the knowledge needed to make informed decisions during what is one of the biggest decisions they will ever make.
Cheers
noted the different opinions above. May I just bring out one key difference between buying a ready made car where you can see the final product vs something you have to build from scratch and pay progressively and often is a significant large amount and contains many variables that can make a major difference on the final price.
It is interesting to note that builders & renovation contractors in some overseas countries, do provide major cost item breakdown. The same with tenders for major commercial or public works in some countries. It is thus amazing to me that consumers in Australia are expected to just take one lump sum for such a major expenditure.
Guess I need to find ways to work around this major handicap and thanks for the suggestion on how to
It is interesting to note that builders & renovation contractors in some overseas countries, do provide major cost item breakdown. The same with tenders for major commercial or public works in some countries. It is thus amazing to me that consumers in Australia are expected to just take one lump sum for such a major expenditure.
Guess I need to find ways to work around this major handicap and thanks for the suggestion on how to
noted the different opinions above. May I just bring out one key difference between buying a ready made car where you can see the final product vs something you have to build from scratch and pay progressively and often is a significant large amount and contains many variables that can make a major difference on the final price.
It is interesting to note that builders & renovation contractors in some overseas countries, do provide major cost item breakdown. The same with tenders for major commercial or public works in some countries. It is thus amazing to me that consumers in Australia are expected to just take one lump sum for such a major expenditure.
Guess I need to find ways to work around this major handicap and thanks for the suggestion on how to
It is interesting to note that builders & renovation contractors in some overseas countries, do provide major cost item breakdown. The same with tenders for major commercial or public works in some countries. It is thus amazing to me that consumers in Australia are expected to just take one lump sum for such a major expenditure.
Guess I need to find ways to work around this major handicap and thanks for the suggestion on how to
Hi Aston.
I hear what you are saying but really it's the bottom line that is important. All builders will have different pricing structures for different parts. One may have better deals with some suppliers and not others. Some may have screwed some of their trades down but are prepared to pay more for others. Sometimes the quality of the trades will dictate the price. At time suppliers too the builders may not want the public and other competitors know the pricing structures they have with come to with builders. Itemised prices would only be part of the story. Ultimately you can't get different builders to build different parts of your house so what does it matter what each part costs, it's the final price that is of importance (although I'd add that quality is of equal importance).
As you say a house has many variables so the only way to truely compare pricing is to control those variables as much as possible.
Realistically this means having your own plans and complete specifications and getting all builders to quote on exactly the same build. Once you have your pricing, then you can start to negotiate.
Unfortunately that's not the way many people proceed with building a house. Most people visit display homes, find a few floor plans that appeal, get some prices based on different plans and standard inclusions and then try to work out which is giving them the best value. All that's before they start adding in all the extras. It makes it just about impossible to compare pricing.
The other option is to owner build. Then you are free to negotiate every single aspect of your build. You can get all the itemised quotes you want and cherry pick the ones that will give you the best price and quality balance. Personally I recommend this option but it's not for everyone.
I can understand that no one wants to pay more for things in life than we have to, but builders are businesses and I guess you should expect them to be any more or less transparent about their business models and costings than you expect from Woolworths, Coles, Apple or a Ferrari dealership.
What we should expect from builders is the same consumer rights as we expect from those other companies, but that's a whole other discussion.
All the best with your planning and I hope you've got some pointers to help.
...... The same with tenders for major commercial or public works in some countries. It is thus amazing to me that consumers in Australia are expected to just take one lump sum for such a major expenditure.
The same can be said for the WA mining industry which is world class, I might add best practice in the implementation of 3D BIM, data/proofs, simulations ,automation,etc,etc. Unfortunately public works is lagging behind
Guess I need to find ways to work around this major handicap and thanks for the suggestion on how to
Great, one word of advice stay clear of Architectural BIM software that fails to deal will engineering Bim/data
Here
Engineering Bim
Cheers
Chris
it seems most builders that I approached in Brisbane, give one lump sum for almost 90% of the total construction cost without any breakdown of individual cost item - How can I get detailed breakdown of individual cost to ensure the cost is competitive and not overpriced as most builders claim this is standard industry practice and refuse to give further breakdown of individual cost items?
You are well within your rights to request a full trade breakdown. I build apartments and townhouses for a living and trade breakdowns are a mandatory part of the tendering process as you dont always want to just pick the cheapest price. Often the estimators will miss something or misinterpret the drawings.
its also extremely important to have the trade breakdown so you can compare prelims and margins. You will find that these can differ significantly and knowing these numbers can help you with your negotiations.
Having said that I doubt that the project home companies will ever give you one, but if you go to a smaller builder and tell them you want a trade breakdown you should be able to get one.
My best mate builds mid to high end homes here in Sydney and he provides them as standard with all quotes.
good luck
Yes Sejae, glad to hear it can still be available, albeit rare as there are various reason why one would need a detailed breakdown of major cost items in a build
I agree with Chippy here.
A lot of people want to engage a building designer or architect for the lowest cost. They are the ones who should be providing them with a specification for the works but it costs extra for them to provide it and a lot of people don't want to pay for it. It's about the best way to compare apples to apples.
I used to have people ring me up wanting a quote and the first thing I'd ask is send me the plans and specs. Those that only sent me the plans are just tyre kickers ( Ferraris and Kias ) and I'd get back to them with a quick quote based on the sq m knowing full well that I'd probably never hear from them again. Those that sent me both were obviously more serious so I'd give them a serious quote.
Stewie
A lot of people want to engage a building designer or architect for the lowest cost. They are the ones who should be providing them with a specification for the works but it costs extra for them to provide it and a lot of people don't want to pay for it. It's about the best way to compare apples to apples.
I used to have people ring me up wanting a quote and the first thing I'd ask is send me the plans and specs. Those that only sent me the plans are just tyre kickers ( Ferraris and Kias ) and I'd get back to them with a quick quote based on the sq m knowing full well that I'd probably never hear from them again. Those that sent me both were obviously more serious so I'd give them a serious quote.
Stewie
Yes Sejae, glad to hear it can still be available, albeit rare as there are various reason why one would need a detailed breakdown of major cost items in a build
I know I dont need to tell you this, but you are the client and you are well within your rights to ask for anything you damn well please.
If this is important to you, keep asking until you find a builder who will give it too you and reject those who dont produce it.
if you like I can PM you an apartment project I have just tendered so you can get an idea of what one looks like.
Next time you go out to a nice restaurant you should refuse to order until they give you a breakdown of costs to arrive at the value of the meal you are about to order so you can ascertain that you aren’t getting ripped off.
Yes Sejae, glad to hear it can still be available, albeit rare as there are various reason why one would need a detailed breakdown of major cost items in a build
I know I dont need to tell you this, but you are the client and you are well within your rights to ask for anything you damn well please.
If this is important to you, keep asking until you find a builder who will give it too you and reject those who dont produce it.
if you like I can PM you an apartment project I have just tendered so you can get an idea of what one looks like.
sure Sejae. I am interested to look at it to get some idea of costing
I have been giving quotes and receiving them from subcontractors and suppliers for 50 years and I cannot imagine why ordinary person
just wanting to build a home would want a cost breakdown to unnecessary level of detail.
You don't need it to ensure you are not ripped off, if you shop around then market forces will lead you to the best price for what you want done.
Yes, over the years I have provided detailed cost breakdowns on commercial and government jobs but that was for the purposes of managing progress claims and only after the tender has ben won.
As a builder I would be suspicious of a customer wanting this level of detail (red flags come up) and would simply decline to quote or put extra margin for the perceived risk of dealing with potentially difficult customer.
The customer runs the risk of getting bogged down in detail, loosing the focus of the big picture and risking a blunder. You need to focus your energy on the things that matter.
All you need to do is:
1 Know exactly what you want (and don't change your mind half way through the build)
2 Make sure you can afford it
3 Shop around and find the product you like and compare with competing products, then shortlist
4 Negotiate hard with the preferred builder, making sure they know you are talking to others
5 Make sure you have pre contract review, then independent inspections during your build
Asking for cost breakdown isn't going to put any dollars in your pocket but it could loose you plenty.
just wanting to build a home would want a cost breakdown to unnecessary level of detail.
You don't need it to ensure you are not ripped off, if you shop around then market forces will lead you to the best price for what you want done.
Yes, over the years I have provided detailed cost breakdowns on commercial and government jobs but that was for the purposes of managing progress claims and only after the tender has ben won.
As a builder I would be suspicious of a customer wanting this level of detail (red flags come up) and would simply decline to quote or put extra margin for the perceived risk of dealing with potentially difficult customer.
The customer runs the risk of getting bogged down in detail, loosing the focus of the big picture and risking a blunder. You need to focus your energy on the things that matter.
All you need to do is:
1 Know exactly what you want (and don't change your mind half way through the build)
2 Make sure you can afford it
3 Shop around and find the product you like and compare with competing products, then shortlist
4 Negotiate hard with the preferred builder, making sure they know you are talking to others
5 Make sure you have pre contract review, then independent inspections during your build
Asking for cost breakdown isn't going to put any dollars in your pocket but it could loose you plenty.
I have been giving quotes and receiving them from subcontractors and suppliers for 50 years and I cannot imagine why ordinary person
just wanting to build a home would want a cost breakdown to unnecessary level of detail.
You don't need it to ensure you are not ripped off, if you shop around then market forces will lead you to the best price for what you want done.
Yes, over the years I have provided detailed cost breakdowns on commercial and government jobs but that was for the purposes of managing progress claims and only after the tender has ben won.
As a builder I would be suspicious of a customer wanting this level of detail (red flags come up) and would simply decline to quote or put extra margin for the perceived risk of dealing with potentially difficult customer.
The customer runs the risk of getting bogged down in detail, loosing the focus of the big picture and risking a blunder. You need to focus your energy on the things that matter.
All you need to do is:
1 Know exactly what you want (and don't change your mind half way through the build)
2 Make sure you can afford it
3 Shop around and find the product you like and compare with competing products, then shortlist
4 Negotiate hard with the preferred builder, making sure they know you are talking to others
5 Make sure you have pre contract review, then independent inspections during your build
Asking for cost breakdown isn't going to put any dollars in your pocket but it could loose you plenty.
just wanting to build a home would want a cost breakdown to unnecessary level of detail.
You don't need it to ensure you are not ripped off, if you shop around then market forces will lead you to the best price for what you want done.
Yes, over the years I have provided detailed cost breakdowns on commercial and government jobs but that was for the purposes of managing progress claims and only after the tender has ben won.
As a builder I would be suspicious of a customer wanting this level of detail (red flags come up) and would simply decline to quote or put extra margin for the perceived risk of dealing with potentially difficult customer.
The customer runs the risk of getting bogged down in detail, loosing the focus of the big picture and risking a blunder. You need to focus your energy on the things that matter.
All you need to do is:
1 Know exactly what you want (and don't change your mind half way through the build)
2 Make sure you can afford it
3 Shop around and find the product you like and compare with competing products, then shortlist
4 Negotiate hard with the preferred builder, making sure they know you are talking to others
5 Make sure you have pre contract review, then independent inspections during your build
Asking for cost breakdown isn't going to put any dollars in your pocket but it could loose you plenty.
Probably one of the best posts I’ve ever read on this forum. Nailed it.
👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
You are better off getting your 3D Bim AEC house design completed on a cloud portal and then get/share 2D and 3D Model access
Here
Vectorworks Cloud Services
Autodesk 360 Cloud
The live data and build estimates,engineering, materials costs, trade details, constants, etc can be accessed via Google or excel sheets online anywhere
there are small fees applicable
Welcome to the team
hth
Here
Vectorworks Cloud Services
Autodesk 360 Cloud
The live data and build estimates,engineering, materials costs, trade details, constants, etc can be accessed via Google or excel sheets online anywhere
there are small fees applicable
Welcome to the team
hth
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