Metricon Box Gutters did not meet Australian Standards
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We were very concerned last year to learn that the parapet box gutters on our Metricon project home DID NOT meet Australian design standards, and our insurance company warned us they would not cover any future water damage resulting from non compliant leaking gutters. The insurance company said many water damage claims have been subject to this exclusion and to take care. We asked Metricon about this. Their representative quickly said all their new homes in NSW were constructed this (NOT compliant) way! A quick visit to some Metricon display homes confirmed this. FYI, box gutters that do not meet Australian design standards, i.e. must have 2 sump outlets, are prone to blockages that usually results in water leaking into the house. We challenged Metricon to confirm in writing that our parapet box gutters met Australian standards however they were either unable, or unwilling to do so. Instead a few week slater they quietly removed the gutters they had already installed and replaced them with a new, and standards compliant design. We suggest to Metricon's customers Australia wide that you carefully check the design of their box gutters (if you have them in your design) and if they don't comply with Australian design standards, demand that Metricon retrospectively replaces them with a design that does. Take care, and do you own checking, and get confirmation from Metricon in writing of compliance to Australian Standards AS/NZS 3500.3, do not just rely on what Metricon tells you verbally! Water damage can cost thousands to fix and you need your insurer on side to cover this if it happens.
This is common unfortunately.
The most common area of box gutter non compliance are emergency overflow provisions that are a woefully insufficient size.
You cannot rely on the Building Surveyor because they just sight the plumber's certificate of compliance as their verification of compliance.
Here in Victoria, most new homes have been fitted with non compliant eaves gutter roof drainage for decades. Some other States are also known to have non compliant eaves gutter problems and the matter was raised in the NSW parliament about 10 years ago.
If the architect has specked the guttering, he will rarely have the qualifications needed to do so.
The most common area of box gutter non compliance are emergency overflow provisions that are a woefully insufficient size.
You cannot rely on the Building Surveyor because they just sight the plumber's certificate of compliance as their verification of compliance.
Here in Victoria, most new homes have been fitted with non compliant eaves gutter roof drainage for decades. Some other States are also known to have non compliant eaves gutter problems and the matter was raised in the NSW parliament about 10 years ago.
If the architect has specked the guttering, he will rarely have the qualifications needed to do so.
We were very concerned last year to learn that the parapet box gutters on our Metricon project home DID NOT meet Australian design standards, and our insurance company warned us they would not cover any future water damage resulting from non compliant leaking gutters. The insurance company said many water damage claims have been subject to this exclusion and to take care. We asked Metricon about this. Their representative quickly said all their new homes in NSW were constructed this (NOT compliant) way! A quick visit to some Metricon display homes confirmed this. FYI, box gutters that do not meet Australian design standards, i.e. must have 2 sump outlets, are prone to blockages that usually results in water leaking into the house. We challenged Metricon to confirm in writing that our parapet box gutters met Australian standards however they were either unable, or unwilling to do so. Instead a few week slater they quietly removed the gutters they had already installed and replaced them with a new, and standards compliant design. We suggest to Metricon's customers Australia wide that you carefully check the design of their box gutters (if you have them in your design) and if they don't comply with Australian design standards, demand that Metricon retrospectively replaces them with a design that does. Take care, and do you own checking, and get confirmation from Metricon in writing of compliance to Australian Standards AS/NZS 3500.3, do not just rely on what Metricon tells you verbally! Water damage can cost thousands to fix and you need your insurer on side to cover this if it happens.
Thanks for raising this Norfolk. As we have a similar design, we’re likely to have the same issue. It’s good timing as M’s warranty service person is dropping by tomorrow morning to finally start on our logged defects so I can raise this issue with him as well
The HIA contract that Metricon use says the home has to be built to Australian building code. If it is not then your private building inspector (NOT surveyor) will tell you and this is the proof you need to get it fixed before handover.
If the building is to code then you need to find a new insurance company.
If the building is to code then you need to find a new insurance company.
The HIA contract that Metricon use says the home has to be built to Australian building code. If it is not then your private building inspector (NOT surveyor) will tell you and this is the proof you need to get it fixed before handover.
Very, very few private building consultants know the applicable plumbing regulations and will quite understandably not get up onto a roof in any case due to OHS regulations and insurance requirements.
The (old) thread below is a member's recommendation to have a qualified independent roof inspection and I expanded on the recommendation to also include roof drainage.
viewtopic.php?p=971303#p971303
The HIA contract that Metricon use says the home has to be built to Australian building code. If it is not then your private building inspector (NOT surveyor) will tell you and this is the proof you need to get it fixed before handover.
Very, very few private building consultants know the applicable plumbing regulations and will quite understandably not get up onto a roof in any case due to OHS regulations and insurance requirements.
The (old) thread below is a member's recommendation to have a qualified independent roof inspection and I expanded on the recommendation to also include roof drainage.
viewtopic.php?p=971303#p971303
FYI, here are a couple of photos of the non compliant parapet box gutter sumps that Metricon had to replace after we demanded their replacement during construction. The single outlet is prone to blocking causing water to leak into the house. The parapet box gutter sumps on their display homes were the same as this, therefore I assume all the Metricon homes built over the past 5 years with parapets are the same! I suggest Metricon should correct them all.
Always hire a good independent building inspection service.
Looks like they never had a vertical downpipe or an overflow provision?
As a matter of interest, side outlets are much less efficient than vertical outlets in any case.
The minimum sump size is 400mm L, 200mm W, 150mm H.
You were very fortunate to have an unusually benevolent insurance company.
I see a lot of box gutter non compliance, particularly where portico box gutters change direction without each section having its own separate drainage. Non compliant undersize overflow provisions on rainheads are also common.
As a matter of interest, side outlets are much less efficient than vertical outlets in any case.
The minimum sump size is 400mm L, 200mm W, 150mm H.
You were very fortunate to have an unusually benevolent insurance company.
I see a lot of box gutter non compliance, particularly where portico box gutters change direction without each section having its own separate drainage. Non compliant undersize overflow provisions on rainheads are also common.
Yes, You are correct. There was no vertical down pipe or an overflow provision. Metricon said this was design was normal practice and was the same as all the other 500 box gutters they produced in NSW in 2017/18 and were surprised that it did not comply with AS/NZS 3500.3. The design pictured was replaced with a new design. Metricon later had no hesitation blaming their gutter supplier, Stoddart Group for the non compliant gutter.
The thing is that non compliance can be worked around by the builder with a letter from an engineer or other qualified professionals.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
The thing is that non compliance can be worked around by the builder with a letter from an engineer or other qualified professionals.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
In some instances yes but not in this instance because it doesn't meet the performance requirement of the NCC by a huge margin.
It is pretty poor that the Metricon plumbers who have been installing the sumps have self certified the work as compliant and it also highlights the folly of having Building Surveyors only sighting the Certificate Of Compliance as proof of compliance. Every plumber who has certified the past installations and every Building Surveyor who has ticked off on the plumbers work as complying should be identified and investigated but that is highly unlikely to happen.
The thing is that non compliance can be worked around by the builder with a letter from an engineer or other qualified professionals.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
Non compliance doesn't mean wrong, it just means another way to do it. Just insist on it being built to comply and you can't really go wrong.
In some instances yes but not in this instance because it doesn't meet the performance requirement of the NCC by a huge margin.
It is pretty poor that the Metricon plumbers who have been installing the sumps have self certified the work as compliant and it also highlights the folly of having Building Surveyors only sighting the Certificate Of Compliance as proof of compliance. Every plumber who has certified the past installations and every Building Surveyor who has ticked off on the plumbers work as complying should be identified and investigated but that is highly unlikely to happen.
I agree but a Royal Commission couldn't possibly investigate the building industry in its entirety anyway, there would be far too many terms of reference required and it would take too long. I am surprised though that a Royal Commission hasn't been slated to investigate the very serious non compliant cladding debacle and the role of Certifying Surveyors included in the terms of reference.
Found this Tuesday, 4 October 2016 Alert from the Victorian Building Authority.
https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/media/latest ... actitioner
NOTE: The minimum depths and heights quoted are for (domestic) box gutters. This is not to be confused with the minimum depth and height that I quoted previously for the sump.
There is a lot of information available online re box gutter compliance.
It really is staggering that the VBA could know of these issues yet remain blissfully ineffective in stopping the serious non compliance.
Box Gutters Alert to Building and Plumbing Practitioner
Tuesday, 4 October 2016
Compliant box gutters require architects, designers, builders and plumbers to work together
Too often the VBA finds box gutters installed that aren't the right size, don't terminate correctly or have other problems that make them non-compliant; which some practitioners have not realised.
Box gutters that fail to comply with the Plumbing Regulations 2008 are regularly found by the VBA Inspection Service Team in its work under the VBA Pro-active inspection program.
In addition to finding non-compliant box gutters, the Inspection Service Team members have spoken to many plumbers and builders who are not aware of the requirements for installing this type of gutter.
Box gutters have been found that change direction, include side chutes, reduce in size, terminate onto soaker flashings, are undersized , have inadequate overflow provision, and at times, terminate into downpipe pops.
What the deemed-to-satisfy provisions for roof drainage require:
It is important that practitioners are aware of the standards for the installation of box gutters. They must:
The VBA urges architects, draftspersons and building practitioners to consult with the licensed plumbers and where unable, the relevant standards, to establish what is required to assure a compliant job for the finished product (ie, roof framing to be constructed correctly so the licensed plumber can install compliant plumbing work).
What can Practitioners do?
Plumbing practitioners can ensure that they are up-to-date on the requirements of installing box gutters in the AS/NZS 3500.3:2015 Plumbing and drainage, Part3: Stormwater drainage and SA HB 39:2015 Installation code for metal roof and wall cladding.
https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/media/latest ... actitioner
NOTE: The minimum depths and heights quoted are for (domestic) box gutters. This is not to be confused with the minimum depth and height that I quoted previously for the sump.
There is a lot of information available online re box gutter compliance.
It really is staggering that the VBA could know of these issues yet remain blissfully ineffective in stopping the serious non compliance.
Box Gutters Alert to Building and Plumbing Practitioner
Tuesday, 4 October 2016
Compliant box gutters require architects, designers, builders and plumbers to work together
Too often the VBA finds box gutters installed that aren't the right size, don't terminate correctly or have other problems that make them non-compliant; which some practitioners have not realised.
Box gutters that fail to comply with the Plumbing Regulations 2008 are regularly found by the VBA Inspection Service Team in its work under the VBA Pro-active inspection program.
In addition to finding non-compliant box gutters, the Inspection Service Team members have spoken to many plumbers and builders who are not aware of the requirements for installing this type of gutter.
Box gutters have been found that change direction, include side chutes, reduce in size, terminate onto soaker flashings, are undersized , have inadequate overflow provision, and at times, terminate into downpipe pops.
What the deemed-to-satisfy provisions for roof drainage require:
It is important that practitioners are aware of the standards for the installation of box gutters. They must:
- Discharge through an appropriately sized sump or rain head.
- Discharge at the downstream end without a change in direction (ie, not through side chute).
- Have a minimum width of no less than 200mm for a domestic box gutter 300 mm for commercial.
- Have a depth at the high end of not less than 75mm.
- Have adequate overflow provision at all rain-heads and sumps.
- Have a sole width that is not to be reduced towards the outlet without a proportional increase in depth.
The VBA urges architects, draftspersons and building practitioners to consult with the licensed plumbers and where unable, the relevant standards, to establish what is required to assure a compliant job for the finished product (ie, roof framing to be constructed correctly so the licensed plumber can install compliant plumbing work).
What can Practitioners do?
Plumbing practitioners can ensure that they are up-to-date on the requirements of installing box gutters in the AS/NZS 3500.3:2015 Plumbing and drainage, Part3: Stormwater drainage and SA HB 39:2015 Installation code for metal roof and wall cladding.
Found this Tuesday, 4 October 2016 Alert from the Victorian Building Authority.
https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/media/latest ... actitioner
NOTE: The minimum depths and heights quoted are for (domestic) box gutters. This is not to be confused with the minimum depth and height that I quoted previously for the sump.
There is a lot of information available online re box gutter compliance.
It really is staggering that the VBA could know of these issues yet remain blissfully ineffective in stopping the serious non compliance.
Box Gutters Alert to Building and Plumbing Practitioner
Tuesday, 4 October 2016
Compliant box gutters require architects, designers, builders and plumbers to work together
Too often the VBA finds box gutters installed that aren't the right size, don't terminate correctly or have other problems that make them non-compliant; which some practitioners have not realised.
Box gutters that fail to comply with the Plumbing Regulations 2008 are regularly found by the VBA Inspection Service Team in its work under the VBA Pro-active inspection program.
In addition to finding non-compliant box gutters, the Inspection Service Team members have spoken to many plumbers and builders who are not aware of the requirements for installing this type of gutter.
Box gutters have been found that change direction, include side chutes, reduce in size, terminate onto soaker flashings, are undersized , have inadequate overflow provision, and at times, terminate into downpipe pops.
What the deemed-to-satisfy provisions for roof drainage require:
It is important that practitioners are aware of the standards for the installation of box gutters. They must:
The VBA urges architects, draftspersons and building practitioners to consult with the licensed plumbers and where unable, the relevant standards, to establish what is required to assure a compliant job for the finished product (ie, roof framing to be constructed correctly so the licensed plumber can install compliant plumbing work).
What can Practitioners do?
Plumbing practitioners can ensure that they are up-to-date on the requirements of installing box gutters in the AS/NZS 3500.3:2015 Plumbing and drainage, Part3: Stormwater drainage and SA HB 39:2015 Installation code for metal roof and wall cladding.
https://www.vba.vic.gov.au/media/latest ... actitioner
NOTE: The minimum depths and heights quoted are for (domestic) box gutters. This is not to be confused with the minimum depth and height that I quoted previously for the sump.
There is a lot of information available online re box gutter compliance.
It really is staggering that the VBA could know of these issues yet remain blissfully ineffective in stopping the serious non compliance.
Box Gutters Alert to Building and Plumbing Practitioner
Tuesday, 4 October 2016
Compliant box gutters require architects, designers, builders and plumbers to work together
Too often the VBA finds box gutters installed that aren't the right size, don't terminate correctly or have other problems that make them non-compliant; which some practitioners have not realised.
Box gutters that fail to comply with the Plumbing Regulations 2008 are regularly found by the VBA Inspection Service Team in its work under the VBA Pro-active inspection program.
In addition to finding non-compliant box gutters, the Inspection Service Team members have spoken to many plumbers and builders who are not aware of the requirements for installing this type of gutter.
Box gutters have been found that change direction, include side chutes, reduce in size, terminate onto soaker flashings, are undersized , have inadequate overflow provision, and at times, terminate into downpipe pops.
What the deemed-to-satisfy provisions for roof drainage require:
It is important that practitioners are aware of the standards for the installation of box gutters. They must:
- Discharge through an appropriately sized sump or rain head.
- Discharge at the downstream end without a change in direction (ie, not through side chute).
- Have a minimum width of no less than 200mm for a domestic box gutter 300 mm for commercial.
- Have a depth at the high end of not less than 75mm.
- Have adequate overflow provision at all rain-heads and sumps.
- Have a sole width that is not to be reduced towards the outlet without a proportional increase in depth.
The VBA urges architects, draftspersons and building practitioners to consult with the licensed plumbers and where unable, the relevant standards, to establish what is required to assure a compliant job for the finished product (ie, roof framing to be constructed correctly so the licensed plumber can install compliant plumbing work).
What can Practitioners do?
Plumbing practitioners can ensure that they are up-to-date on the requirements of installing box gutters in the AS/NZS 3500.3:2015 Plumbing and drainage, Part3: Stormwater drainage and SA HB 39:2015 Installation code for metal roof and wall cladding.
A concern is that it seems, based on Metricon's comments and their display homes, that all their recently built homes with box gutters, except mine, do not comply with the minimum standards prescribed in AS/NZS 3500.3:2015. If there is water damage due to a blockage their owners will be unable to claim the repairs on their insurance. The insurance industry is well aware of this issue and potential exclusion so its the first thing they will check.
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