Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Feb 22, 2019 4:50 pm I’m currently looking into building materials. Hebel and Masterwall (as well as a few others) have come up. Anyone able to share their experiences with either products? And why you chose one over the other ? Interested to hear about other similar products too that you may have chosen over these two. TIA. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 2Feb 23, 2019 2:40 am Hebel (AAC)is a great material on it own, but only when the whole house is built out of it (e.g. see Hebel blocks). It doesn't bring much value when it is used as a 75 mm panel over traditional studs and when it used together with non-breathable acrylic renders (but good thing that there are breathable renders out there which you can still use). As it only works with acrylic render, this part makes it quite expensive too. There is zero effect of Hebel thermal mass when it is used in as a panel, which is a shame, as its high thermal mass coupled with thermal conductivity (insulation) is one of the main properties AAC is valued for (you get the flywheel effect of living in a double brick house, but with even better insulation properties). MasterWall is made out of EPS which is a pretty doubtful material due to many reasons: - if HBCD fire retardants are used, it off gases with carcinogenic particles (needs to be checked, only recently leading EPS vendors have switched to non-HBCD EPS manufacturing due to the fact that HBCD-based EPS has been banned in Europe and US); - EPS is semi-vapor permeable material and is hydrophobic (i.e. has zero hygroscopicity and is not capillary open material), meaning that moisture travelling from the inside to the outside as well as any moisture from the outside (e.g. due to the strong rain + sealing defects or when it is hot and humid outside and dry and cold inside) will be stuck in the middle, right where your studs and plasterboard instead of drying to the outside as you would expect in vapor permeable system, so you have high odds of mold and rot appearing on your studs in just few months time of living in EPS-clad house; - although EPS has no nutritional value, it can still be easily burrowed by ants and termites; - expensive acrylic renders are still required to cover EPS. A good alternative to the above materials in light framed construction will be MgO boards. They are made from MgO cement (used by the ancients, e.g. used in the Great Chinese Wall, hundreds of years before Portland cement became popular), highly vapor permeable and very hygroscopic. They are extremely water resistant and can stay under water for many days without any effect and then dry out very quickly. They are quite dense and hence times more stronger and impact resistant than EPS or gyprock, can be structural (you can use easily use them instead of OSB for your flooring and roofing). Much more acoustic insulation when comparing even to gyprock soundcheck and much better from fire resistance perspective when comparing to gyprock Fyrcheck. With MgO->insulation->MgO sandwich can achieve STC of 54 and higher and BAL40 rating from both outside and inside. You can/probably should consider using them for your internal walls too. When used with proper natural insulation (e.g. cotton or cellulose) and in a sandwiched configuration (you use painted or rendered MgO on the inside instead to replace drywall as well as rendered MgO on the outside), you get one of the most breathable/biologically friendly/ecological houses you can ever think of (completely forget about mold and rot even if you are leaving in the most rainy area in the whole country!). On the outside, they can be used with wide variety of natural (e.g. cement or gypsum) renders or simply painted with just one coat of special stucco paint. On the inside they can be also either rendered or painted in two coats (primer and top coat). They are also much simpler/easier to install when comparing to gyprock. They are also extremely cost effective and can be acquired for less than $3 per sqm when imported directly from the manufacturers. There are many brands available in Australia, too. If you are building lightweight timber framing house, I would definitely have used high quality MgO boards for both external and internal walls, structural floors and under roof and have probably saved tens of thousands on the materials alone. Hope it helps. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 3Feb 23, 2019 10:54 am Thanks heaps for that. MgO sounds really interesting. From the Habitech website, they use it as a cladding. They don’t come in blocks like Hebel does it? So it needs to be used in a sandwich fashion? Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 4Feb 23, 2019 11:42 am Depending on a thickness, they can be also used as cladding as well as for interiors too (replacement of a gyprock, structural flooring etc.): E.g. https://magoxx.com/ They are not blocks and are only suitable for lightweight framed construction (same as Master Wall and Hebel Panels). If you have option to go for Hebel blocks, then go for them and build yourself a sustainable and breathable house with good insulation and thermal mass properties, a great alternative to wood framed construction. You could use MgO boards for internal linings in it then. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 5Feb 23, 2019 2:27 pm alexp79 Depending on a thickness, they can be also used as cladding as well as for interiors too (replacement of a gyprock, structural flooring etc.): E.g. https://magoxx.com/ They are not blocks and are only suitable for lightweight framed construction (same as Master Wall and Hebel Panels). If you have option to go for Hebel blocks, then go for them and build yourself a sustainable and breathable house with good insulation and thermal mass properties, a great alternative to wood framed construction. You could use MgO boards for internal linings in it then. I see. Thanks again alexp79. Would you happen to know if most Hebel builds (for example: volume builders) use powerpanels instead of blocks? And if so why is that the case? Coming back to the use of MgO boards for internal linings. Are you suggesting to use Hebel blocks through out the entire house i.e. both internal and external? And then 'cladding' the internal walls with MgO boards? Thanks heaps again for your assistance again. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 6Feb 23, 2019 2:38 pm Volume builders generally use Hebel Panels (attached to wooden frame) and Hebel PowerFloor (attached to wooden joists). If you want to build out of Hebel blocks, you use custom builder. As Hebel blocks are generally quite wide (20 cm), you can build external walls with Hebel blocks and then you can use MgO boards (or gyprock) over timber studs or standard bricks for the internal walls. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 8Feb 23, 2019 6:36 pm kks The reason builders use aerated concrete panels and products is that their use removes one trade from the job. That's it, that's all, nothing else is relevant to the matter here in Oz. Sorry. Builders should start thinking in terms of benefits and value to the customers. Hebel Panels remove one trade from the job (bricklayers?) but add another one (renderer). Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 9Feb 24, 2019 6:41 am alexp79 As Hebel blocks are generally quite wide (20 cm), you can build external walls with Hebel blocks and then you can use MgO boards (or gyprock) over timber studs or standard bricks for the internal walls. Would you recommend then to use Hebel Power Panels+ for the internals too instead of going with MgO boards? Just wondering what the benefits are with the MgO boards vs Power Panels for internals. Thank you!! Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 11Feb 24, 2019 11:39 am kks Most people don't build with aerated concrete in Australian builds. That initial material choice has an impact on the buyer pool when you sell. Housing is a long-game. Totally understand where you’re coming from. But if we do build, we aren’t selling till we’re carried out in a box. Sure the unexpected may happen. And to your point about the long game, who knows what will happen in say the next 40-50 years. I certainly don’t. So again I take your point and it needs to be considered. But we are somewhat detracting from the original intent of the post. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 12Feb 24, 2019 12:45 pm kks Most people don't build with aerated concrete in Australian builds. That initial material choice has an impact on the buyer pool when you sell. Housing is a long-game. Well, Australian building industry is stuck in pre-historic state. The buyers have to be educated what is better for them and what is worse. Educated buyers or buyers who already have experience (e.g. Europeans, Chinese, Americans etc.) will certainly be preferring a better construction and will be agreed to pay premium. Obviously, the resale value of properly build and insulated houses from the right materials will be higher. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 13Mar 31, 2019 8:57 am I am just wondering if anyone has any experience with either of the following or similar. https://www.foamex.com.au/ http://www.nutex.com.au/ And more generically, if you've got experience with the use of polystyrene as walls for your home, I'd love to hear your views on it. Thank you in advance. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 14Apr 01, 2019 1:17 pm Some of the poly cladding has been banned recently due to fire safety concerns. Usage of polystyrene for wall cladding is generally not a very good idea: polysterene it is not vapour permeable (meaning issues with mould and moisture condensation in your studs is almost guaranteed), needs to be carefully checked with the manufacturer for the presence of cancerogenic HBCD-based fire retardants (the main reason for EPS/XPS insulation to be banned in Europe and US). Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 15Apr 01, 2019 4:51 pm alexp79 Some of the poly cladding has been banned recently due to fire safety concerns. Usage of polystyrene for wall cladding is generally not a very good idea: polysterene it is not vapour permeable (meaning issues with mould and moisture condensation in your studs is almost guaranteed), needs to be carefully checked with the manufacturer for the presence of cancerogenic HBCD-based fire retardants (the main reason for EPS/XPS insulation to be banned in Europe and US). Any idea about those plain polystyrene? Are they safe. My builder uses it on my build and a many other builds I seen. It very light weight and looks exactly like those u take out from TV boxes etc. Re: Hebel vs Masterwall vs others. 16Apr 01, 2019 5:47 pm MyFirst alexp79 Some of the poly cladding has been banned recently due to fire safety concerns. Usage of polystyrene for wall cladding is generally not a very good idea: polysterene it is not vapour permeable (meaning issues with mould and moisture condensation in your studs is almost guaranteed), needs to be carefully checked with the manufacturer for the presence of cancerogenic HBCD-based fire retardants (the main reason for EPS/XPS insulation to be banned in Europe and US). Any idea about those plain polystyrene? Are they safe. My builder uses it on my build and a many other builds I seen. It very light weight and looks exactly like those u take out from TV boxes etc. Plain polystyrene also known as EPS and is generally combustible and produces toxic smoke, so can't be used for cladding. When HBCD-based fire retardants are added it is then often referred as "EPS SE" and provides fire protection although becoming not particularly safe for the health of the occupants. A lot of manufacturers phase out HBCD and use alternative fire retardants those days, however, it it still to be checked on case by case basis: https://chemicalwatch.com/22250/countdo ... -phase-out I was looking at different options for a fence for my build and Hebel PowerFence seemed like a good option (one of the criteria was a solid wall look). However, I don't… 0 5872 1 6601 1000000% definitely add insulation. I have in my home and it makes a big difference minimising sound transfer. Insulation is pretty cheap and definitely worth it 2 6174 |