Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jan 14, 2018 9:50 pm Hi, We are building a Metricon Liberty 45 in Sydney. We are two thirds of the way through the build and have identified significant structural defects in the house. Many elements do not comply with the tolerances in Australia standards, and there are differences to the contract plans. The slab is not level, the walls and ceilings are not straight, the brickwork is sloppy, the waterproofing is defective, and the site drainage poses a significant risk of slab heave. After dismissive and unsatisfactory responses from Metricon's senior management in NSW over the past 2 months we have involved NSW Fair Trading and are now awaiting their inspection. Has anyone else had a similar experience mid build? How did you resolve these problems? Do you have any suggestions to assist us to get the defective workmanship fixed? Norfolk Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 2Jan 15, 2018 4:08 pm That sounds like a standard Building inspection report check list and unless there are specific structural problems identified and certified as not fit for purpose by a structural engineer then I think you might struggle with what's posted above ..more info, photos, etc, required Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 3Jan 15, 2018 9:14 pm Who was checking your build? Two thirds of a way is a long way before waking up. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 5Jan 16, 2018 6:44 am StructuralBIMGuy That sounds like a standard Building inspection report check list and unless there are specific structural problems identified and certified as not fit for purpose by a structural engineer then I think you might struggle with what's posted above ..more info, photos, etc, required Hi SBIM Guy, FYI, Here are a couple of photos of one example. One Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ wide photo and one close up photo with the gap high highlighted with window packers over 2m straight edge. My laser line level indicated differences in levels of over 25mm across the room! This is indicative of the defects in all other rooms on the slab, 1st floor, and on Gyprock ceilings and walls. I visited another guy's build close by and his slab was the same. I figure most people won't inspect and won't notice such things until its too late (ie at PCI) and they will be pressured into accepting! Thanks for your interest. I am happy to send some more photos later. Norfolk. Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 6Jan 16, 2018 6:55 am Norfolk StructuralBIMGuy That sounds like a standard Building inspection report check list and unless there are specific structural problems identified and certified as not fit for purpose by a structural engineer then I think you might struggle with what's posted above ..more info, photos, etc, required Hi SBIM Guy, FYI, Here are a couple of photos of one example. One Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ wide photo and one close up photo with the gap high highlighted with window packers over 2m straight edge. My laser line level indicated differences in levels of over 25mm across the room! This is indicative of the defects in all other rooms on the slab, 1st floor, and on Gyprock ceilings and walls. I visited another guy's build close by and his slab was the same. I figure most people won't inspect and won't notice such things until its too late (ie at PCI) and they will be pressured into accepting! Thanks for your interest. I am happy to send some more photos later. Norfolk. I agree, not many people check this. Good example for many of us to follow. What variance is not acceptable by industry standard? Building with Metricon Liberty 45 Vogue on Sydney Northern Beaches https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=88438 Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 7Jan 16, 2018 7:06 am Hi K-Real, Variations beyond the tolerances specified Australian Standards are considered defective by law and it is consumers' legal right to have them fixed. If they are not fixed this is breach of the contract. Don't let the builder tell you otherwise or mislead you about what these tolerances are. I caution don't confuse the builder's own 'standards' or what they tell you are the 'industry standards' with the proper 'Australian Standards' enforceable by law. Norfolk Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 8Jan 16, 2018 7:08 am Norfolk Hi K-Real, Variations beyond the tolerances specified Australian Standards are considered defective by law and it is consumers' legal right to have them fixed. If they are not fixed this is breach of the contract. Don't let the builder tell you otherwise or mislead you about what these tolerances are. I caution don't confuse the builder's own 'standards' or what they tell you are the 'industry standards' with the proper 'Australian Standards' enforceable by law. Norfolk Here is a link to NSW standards: http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/biz_res/ftweb/pdfs/Tenants_and_home_owners/NSW_Guide_to_Standards_and_Tolerances.pdf Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 9Jan 16, 2018 8:29 am Builders make extra profit by skimping on delivery, usually quality, but often substitution with cheaper elements or even omission. Additionally they make more by pocketing what they should be spending on quality control, figuring correctly that they will blow you off, you will give up or if they actually have to pay you something it will be just pocket change. So if you think you will get what's in the contract without independent monitoring, checking, you could be badly mistaken and in your case badly disappointed. Guide to standards and tolerances is just guide for dummies and builder's book of excuses to hide behind bad workmanship. In my book "if it looks wrong it is" Its easy enough to read tolerances for dummies and establish your slab is way out and defective, so what? What are you going to do about it? Consumer protection is a scam, there is none , it only looks like there is. Builders organisations have influence and governments in their pocket. That is why even the skimpy legislation on consumer protection is not enforced, so builder's do what they like with impunity. Even the law will not help you. Even when you can establish a defect, that does not automatically mean it has to be fixed. You have to establish at your expense (lawyer or a barrister) that it is necessary and a reasonable course of action to demolish and rebuild. In addition in Vic at least, dispute resolution must be fair to you AND TO THE BUILDER. What is fair? Enough fog to keep you in VCAT for days at 10K a day It is possible that a tribunal member may concede that your out of level slab is defective but decide it does not inconvenience you too much (you are too old to be rolling marbles on the floor) and you may just get pocket change in compensation(not even close enough to pay your legals) To all those who are rattling their sabres, lets go legal, take a cold shower. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 10Jan 16, 2018 8:35 am Hi norfolk Thanks for the informative photos If you are putting carpet down you may not notice it & slab cracking, on the other hand porcelain tiles cracking will be a long term issue. Generally unless standards and finishes are specified in the contract or/& drawings previous trades are slap hazard and rely on finishing trades to rectify eg tilers -> to screed level. please check your engineering drawings for slab thickness 100mm to 85mm slab. BTW the screed isn't a structural component 60 mm (85- 25 mm) concrete is unacceptable for tile finishes Did you take photos of the reinforcement prior to concrete? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 11Jan 17, 2018 7:12 am Hi SBIM guy, Thanks for your advice. No, we did not take any photos of the slab reinforcement. We had trusted Metricon to do the job properly. The contract specifies the work will meet Australian standards, that is also the law. My understanding is the builder is required to deliver the work to standards and this is enforceable by NSWFT and NCAT, correct? On the slab we will install laminate flooring which we know from past experience is very sensitive to variations in levels. Later we may install tiles so we need things done properly. Norfolk Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 12Jan 17, 2018 7:28 am building-expert Builders make extra profit by skimping on delivery, usually quality, but often substitution with cheaper elements or even omission. Additionally they make more by pocketing what they should be spending on quality control, figuring correctly that they will blow you off, you will give up or if they actually have to pay you something it will be just pocket change. So if you think you will get what's in the contract without independent monitoring, checking, you could be badly mistaken and in your case badly disappointed. Guide to standards and tolerances is just guide for dummies and builder's book of excuses to hide behind bad workmanship. In my book "if it looks wrong it is" Its easy enough to read tolerances for dummies and establish your slab is way out and defective, so what? What are you going to do about it? Consumer protection is a scam, there is none , it only looks like there is. Builders organisations have influence and governments in their pocket. That is why even the skimpy legislation on consumer protection is not enforced, so builder's do what they like with impunity. Even the law will not help you. Even when you can establish a defect, that does not automatically mean it has to be fixed. You have to establish at your expense (lawyer or a barrister) that it is necessary and a reasonable course of action to demolish and rebuild. In addition in Vic at least, dispute resolution must be fair to you AND TO THE BUILDER. What is fair? Enough fog to keep you in VCAT for days at 10K a day It is possible that a tribunal member may concede that your out of level slab is defective but decide it does not inconvenience you too much (you are too old to be rolling marbles on the floor) and you may just get pocket change in compensation(not even close enough to pay your legals) To all those who are rattling their sabres, lets go legal, take a cold shower. Hi Building Expert, Thanks for your comments. Seems like VACT and NCAT do not enforce their own standards. Surely if they publish tolerances they are bound to enforce them? In other industries like electrical or food safety for example the penalties are significant. How can we get the ACCC to investigate and act? Norfolk Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 13Jan 17, 2018 8:45 am Yes, trust is a blindfold on your face and now you know it. Some years ago we had communications from Consumer Affairs Victoria that they will enforce penalties for breaches of DBCA1995, example making progress claim for stage whilst incomplete + $3K penalty I have never heard of any builder ever paying the penalty. Enforcement? Short of a revolution and heads rolling it won't happen. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 14Jan 18, 2018 10:00 pm We specialise in inspections and inspection reports. We can assist you with listing all defects and can offer advice as to what needs to be done to ensure your build meets all standards. Please feel free to send us a message or phone our office if you would like any assistance. Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 15Jan 19, 2018 6:39 am Houspect NSW We specialise in inspections and inspection reports. We can assist you with listing all defects and can offer advice as to what needs to be done to ensure your build meets all standards. Please feel free to send us a message or phone our office if you would like any assistance. Hi Houspect, Thank you for your post. Actually, we already a customer of yours. We have an investigation report from your inspector prepared last November. At fixing stage the inspector and I spent 4 hours on site investigating Metricon's workmanship. We identified 76 building defects, many serious and structural. We forwarded this report to Metricon asking them to detail their plans to fix before we make the next fixing stage progress payment. We identified further defects on subsequent inspections and again asked Metricon to fix. So far Metricon's responses have been dismissive, inadequate and misleading. When it became clear they had no intention to properly inspect their own work or deliver workmanship to Australian standards and our contract we sent an email to Metricon's owner asking him to assist their NSW senior management team to resolve. As a result of this they have now promised to inspect and report on their workmanship, and propose solutions to the defects which include issues like floors not level, walls and ceilings not straight and plumb as well as poor site drainage risking slab heave. Norfolk Re: Two thirds of the way through the build and identified s 16Feb 09, 2018 1:36 pm Hi Norfolk, We are Building with Metricon in Marsden Park at the moment. We too have found major structural defects with our flooring. Essentially little or no adhesive was use under tiles. We've been fighting with them since October last year. Have you had any further resolution from NCAT or Metricon? 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