Browse Forums General Discussion 1 May 31, 2016 5:01 pm I regularly do pre-contract reviews for my clients. The purpose is two-fold. Firstly it's a basic check to pick out errors and items for re negotiation. Secondly it is educational where you get a basic run down of what and when things happen and how to be on the lookout. Increasingly I am finding that builders are attempting to shove builder's risk and builders work on to owners. Many think that industry contracts are fair to both sides, I don't think they are, but even worse is when you look at special conditions. Examples among many are: If final clean happens before your carpet goes in you have to pick up the scrap. If excess soil cannot be sperad on site it is left on a heap at the back, so you have to cart it away. Isn't that why you are getting a builder? It gets worse: builder wants you to agree that they can make structural changes without telling you, deviate with drainage from that on plan without you knowing , change window sizes as they please etc etc. Some of the special conditions are in conflict with statutory warranties but how will you know? Pre contract review is your first and perhaps your most important inspection. Miss it at your peril. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 2May 31, 2016 6:15 pm One of the changes that annoy me is builders not taking responsibility for footpath damage. It's their subbies driving over the footpath that causes the damage! The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 3Jun 01, 2016 8:12 am bashworth One of the changes that annoy me is builders not taking responsibility for footpath damage. It's their subbies driving over the footpath that causes the damage! Good point Brian! This is just one of many builder's risks and liabilities that are shoved over onto owners. You are paying a builder to do a job and take normal builder's risk, so in effect, you are the underwriter for his risk and are paying twice to do yourself what you have already paid the builder to do. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 4Jun 01, 2016 12:43 pm Asking as someone who is nearing contract time, does anyone have any luck trying to get clauses changed? For example if the contract said they could deviate from the plans as they see fit, and you said that you want to be notified of any changes before they occur are they likely to agree? Or do they typically say take it or leave it. Fyi I haven't seen our contract yet, this is purely hypothetical. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 5Jun 02, 2016 8:58 am bank Asking as someone who is nearing contract time, does anyone have any luck trying to get clauses changed? For example if the contract said they could deviate from the plans as they see fit, and you said that you want to be notified of any changes before they occur are they likely to agree? Or do they typically say take it or leave it. Fyi I haven't seen our contract yet, this is purely hypothetical. Once you sign building contract you have no power to change any clauses. Is it not why we recommend pre contract review so you can be aware and negotiate? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 6Jun 02, 2016 10:13 am I understand that. I was just curious, once you are aware (before you sign), if builders are gererally willing to negotiate or is it an uphill battle? I also understand it will vary builder to builder. Our land contract for example was a take it or leave it situation, they weren't willing to even consider negotiating. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 7Jun 02, 2016 2:00 pm bank I understand that. I was just curious, once you are aware (before you sign), if builders are gererally willing to negotiate or is it an uphill battle? I also understand it will vary builder to builder. Our land contract for example was a take it or leave it situation, they weren't willing to even consider negotiating. Negotiation is an art and requires knowledge of knowing your strengths and opponents weaknesses, timing, how hard to push and when to deal. You can bet builder will be experienced in this. If you blink too soon you loose. What else can i tell you? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 8Jun 02, 2016 10:26 pm If they want your money, they'll negotiate. But as BE said, it's an art. People think that because they're negotiating, they can demand everything That's not how negotiation works. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 9Jun 03, 2016 6:47 am building-expert bank I understand that. I was just curious, once you are aware (before you sign), if builders are gererally willing to negotiate or is it an uphill battle? I also understand it will vary builder to builder. Our land contract for example was a take it or leave it situation, they weren't willing to even consider negotiating. Negotiation is an art and requires knowledge of knowing your strengths and opponents weaknesses, timing, how hard to push and when to deal. You can bet builder will be experienced in this. If you blink too soon you loose. What else can i tell you? Oh yes and I forgot to mention, essential element of negotiation is deception. ("if you don't sign by 5 pm today promotion will end" ) In terms of parity, average homeowner who seldom negotiates will be up against highly trained and experienced negotiator. If this were soccer you would be industrial league 4 playing "A" league team. Work out your chances. I recommend you read (they have) 1 Art of war- Sun Tsu 2 Asian mind games- Chin-Ning Chu Its no substitute for experience but you will have a fighting chance and /or get someone to help you Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 10Jun 03, 2016 2:10 pm bank Asking as someone who is nearing contract time, does anyone have any luck trying to get clauses changed? For example if the contract said they could deviate from the plans as they see fit, and you said that you want to be notified of any changes before they occur are they likely to agree? Or do they typically say take it or leave it. Fyi I haven't seen our contract yet, this is purely hypothetical. You will only have a good chance if you are clued up on things as BE has alluded to. If you nail them on an unfair point, and they have no comeback, then they are pretty well committed to acquiescing to your demands, unless they insist on being cold hard inflexible mony-grubbing impersonal business types, which indeed many are. Take for ex, Bashworth's point about footpath damage. That should NEVER be put on the client - thats the builder's subcontractors doing that, THEY should be under obligation to exercise care. I wouldn't accept that clause, and I myself would ram it home to the builder until he capitulated. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 11Jun 03, 2016 8:20 pm Just to sum it up: Sun Tsu says "Art of War" I say Life is war, get arty! Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 12Jun 04, 2016 3:52 pm Anyone challenged a builder over items or issues that were not consistent with Australian Consumer Law or the applicable consumer guarantees? In Victoria, ref:https://www.consumer.vic.gov.au/shopping/refunds-and-returns/refunds-repairs-and-replacements?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=feature-links&utm_term=refunds-repairs-replacement&utm_content=refunds-repairs-replacement&utm_campaign=shopping Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 13Jun 05, 2016 10:31 am Those provisions don't apply to items over a specific value(40k I think). There are different provisions for homes, albeit they are very ambiguous. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 14Jun 12, 2016 9:44 pm It's amazing how many think that a contract is something they have to sign as-is. I'm in the process of buying a new car, I only signed the contract on the third amendment because I wanted certain things clarified and amended in the contract. Maybe I'm a little OTT but I blame that on past experience - with contracts you can never be too precise and clear. So many conflicts could be avoided if both parties were crystal clear with the contract first up - I see it all the time in my work (and this is much higher sums of money than a residential house...). With my work I regularly take the thick black felt pen to certain words, sentences and clauses that I don't like before I sign a contract. A contract, in an ideal world, should be an even share of risk and reward, and the best place for a contract after it's signed is for it to stay in the bottom drawer and never come out. Once the contract comes out of the drawer, the trust is gone. If a builder won't negotiate on clauses that I believe to be unfair or unreasonable, then quite frankly I would not trust them and would not want to deal with them. That is why you use a builder, they're supposed to be the experts and take on that risk. Otherwise you might as well get a owner builder licence and do it yourself. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 15Sep 12, 2016 9:14 pm building-expert bashworth One of the changes that annoy me is builders not taking responsibility for footpath damage. It's their subbies driving over the footpath that causes the damage! Good point Brian! This is just one of many builder's risks and liabilities that are shoved over onto owners. You are paying a builder to do a job and take normal builder's risk, so in effect, you are the underwriter for his risk and are paying twice to do yourself what you have already paid the builder to do. How much you charge for Building contract review in VIC and how much time it takes? Re: Builder's work shoved on owners,case for pre contract re 16Sep 12, 2016 9:25 pm bank Asking as someone who is nearing contract time, does anyone have any luck trying to get clauses changed? For example if the contract said they could deviate from the plans as they see fit, and you said that you want to be notified of any changes before they occur are they likely to agree? Or do they typically say take it or leave it. Fyi I haven't seen our contract yet, this is purely hypothetical. Under HIA contract all variations much be in writing. Not sure who changes your plans without telling you The worst thing you can do is sign a building contract without a pre contract review. Over the years many people have come to me with disputes where they just signed… 0 8336 It is true that a builder can ignore your independent inspection report as it is not part of the contractual arrangement but that is stupid because he cannot avoid fixing… 9 46818 1) I had requested R6 ceiling insualtion batts, however I noticed that on some areas there are huge gaps which will allow hot air to sweep in, and also noticed black/grey… 0 3476 |