Browse Forums General Discussion Re: Excessive site costs? 62Jun 08, 2016 8:07 pm building-expert The bottom line is that you cannot legislate to protect customers against everything when you often cannot protect them against themselves (they will still sign a contract without reading or understanding or expert help during construction). Siteworks is where builders make (lot of) extra money and they have perfected the routine and there is nothing wrong with that. Law will not protect you against carelessness a bad deal or sharp practice or your ignorance unless you are misled. There is no law against stupidity. So take your time, do your research,shop around, control your emotions, do your evaluation and then make a business decision or you could be whistling Dixie for a long time. Sage advice. The ease with which some people sign their lives away is something no legislation can help with. Some people do more research into their next smartphone purchase than their new home build. Not much you can do for that level of careless credulity. Re: Excessive site costs? 63Jun 10, 2016 3:03 pm Ponzu How did I know you'd find your wY here? My friend - ignorance of development costs is common place in the majority of block purchases. They do not directly influence the asking price until that block is empty for a long time. To believe thAt cost of development cost directly influences the price of blocks bought in the majority of cases is ignorant. Supply and demand is king. The fact someone could negotiate 10-20 off the price off a difficult block doesn't even register when the site costs blow out in excess of that or when the sales fall through and so one else buys that block and PAYS the site cost. Majority of home owners pay a price per square meter that is the market price - before any potentiLly astute buyer affords their own advice prior development. Your assumption that earthworks affects the Pricce of market value is simply incorrect. Market value is purely based on what people are willing to pay at a given time. So for each block that falls through because someone did their due diligence (uncommon) 10 others are willing to pay for it. Bimboys argument that developers are reducing earthworks costs to "make land affordable" is the statement that's being argued here. Case in point is the Dennis family purchasing 25years worth of development land in melbournes west which is now known as manor lakes in the 80s for 4mill have zero care about how development costs affect the land price today and do t reduce costs "to make it more affordable". It was an investment in a future growth corridor that payed off without needing to negotiate land prices to make it affordable for those who can't pay. . Well you knew I would find my way here because a numpty statement was made by Ponzu that needed correcting. But without realising it, you actually agreed with what I said and it is embodied in your 4th sentence. . I posted to clarify what you didnt state, ie that development costs ARE a function in particular circumstances. you then go on to confirm it, by citing an instance where land remains unsold. You can argue all you like, but anyone who has been in the situation, knows exactly what I am talking about. It's why sloping blocks, all things being equal, have a lower price that flat blocks. I'm sure even a Creator of superduperonium like yourself, can understand this simple truism. Ponzu All you're arguing is that not everyone is willing to pay excessive costs, which doesnt equate to "land developers are reducing earthworks costs to make it more affordable", which is the point of contention. Thats the thread contention, your post did not encompass that contention. you made a standalone statement which wasnt strictly true, and you were corrected on that point. So....that'll do, Ponzu. You've just been collared, like Babe there. Re: Excessive site costs? 64Jun 10, 2016 3:59 pm Didn't realise you needed a picture drawn with crayons to come to a conclusion. We're not talking about exceptions here, we're talking about the rule. The rule is that supply and demand dictate land prices, not earthworks costs. Get over it. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Excessive site costs? 65Jun 10, 2016 4:07 pm qebtel .... It's why sloping blocks, all things being equal, have a lower price that flat blocks Yep here in Perth some Land developers pre-selling future stages have knocked $30K off the price of flattened retained blocks Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 66Jun 10, 2016 4:11 pm StructuralBIMGuy qebtel .... It's why sloping blocks, all things being equal, have a lower price that flat blocks Yep here in Perth some Land developers pre-selling future stages have knocked $30K off the price of flattened retained blocks Why would a developer pay for the earthworks and retaining, THEN charge 30k less Than the same size naturally flat block down the road. That makes ZERO sense. Re: Excessive site costs? 67Jun 10, 2016 4:17 pm Ponzu StructuralBIMGuy qebtel .... It's why sloping blocks, all things being equal, have a lower price that flat blocks Yep here in Perth some Land developers pre-selling future stages have knocked $30K off the price of flattened retained blocks Why would a developer pay for the earthworks, THEN charge 30k less Than the same size naturally flat block down the road. That makes ZERO sense. Future land releases they haven't developed and paid for anything yet... Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 68Jun 10, 2016 4:21 pm StructuralBIMGuy Future land releases they haven't developed and paid for anything yet... So the flattening and retaining happens by magic? Or someone does that work for free? Preselling undeveloped land, with promise to flatten and retain to be on equal footing with a flat block down the road for 30k less still doesn't make sense. Could you link us these developments please? Re: Excessive site costs? 69Jun 10, 2016 4:49 pm Ponzu StructuralBIMGuy Future land releases they haven't developed and paid for anything yet... So the flattening and retaining happens by magic? Or someone does that work for free? I didn't say anyone does the retaining for FREE, there is just no retaining, you future block is sloping. Ponzu Preselling undeveloped land, with promise to flatten and retain to be on equal footing with a flat block down the road for 30k less still doesn't make sense. The retaining is taken out ..the punters think they are getting a great deal..That's until they move on to the next stage Ponzu Could you link us these developments please? Here viewtopic.php?f=31&t=67887 Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 70Jun 10, 2016 4:53 pm That's a post on this forum from 2013, not a link to any development in Perth that is selling future releases of retained levelled blocks for 30k less than the flat blocks. I'm not sure if i missed something or you have...
Quote: Yep here in Perth some Land developers pre-selling future stages have knocked $30K off the price of flattened retained blocks The price of land out there has steadily risen and is all similarly priced. You said it was retained and levelled undeveloped lots selling for 30k less. Show me. Just to clarify I'm looking for lots which are priced according to the same factors +/- 30k - eg don't link me a block on the beach for 250k and one 10 minute drive inland for 200k Re: Excessive site costs? 71Jun 10, 2016 5:57 pm Ponzu Just to clarify I'm looking for lots which are priced according to the same factors +/- 30k - eg don't link me a block on the beach for 250k and one 10 minute drive inland for 200k No, it is the same Beach location varying site works and sales prices...go figure Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 72Jun 10, 2016 6:00 pm StructuralBIMGuy Ponzu Just to clarify I'm looking for lots which are priced according to the same factors +/- 30k - eg don't link me a block on the beach for 250k and one 10 minute drive inland for 200k No, it is the same Beach location varying site works and sales prices...go figure Show me. Because for all my Google fu and my RPdata account, I can't see whAt you're referring to. Show me where the beach blocks with promise of retaining and leveling are going for 30k less. Surely if it's for sale you can show me. Re: Excessive site costs? 73Jun 10, 2016 6:24 pm Ponzu StructuralBIMGuy qebtel .... It's why sloping blocks, all things being equal, have a lower price that flat blocks Yep here in Perth some Land developers pre-selling future stages have knocked $30K off the price of flattened retained blocks Why would a developer pay for the earthworks and retaining, THEN charge 30k less Than the same size naturally flat block down the road. That makes ZERO sense. I would happily pay $30k more for a sloping block if it had a nicer outlook, better access to natural light and cross ventilation. I'd much rather be up a bit higher than trapped down in the flats with everyone else Re: Excessive site costs? 75Jun 10, 2016 6:52 pm Ponzu Don't worry because according to bimboy and qebsmall you can flout economic reason and business sense and get it for a steal You don't like other peoples points of view and then you insult them..really you don't deserve to be on this forum You assist no one. hth Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 76Jun 10, 2016 7:22 pm StructuralBIMGuy Ponzu Don't worry because according to bimboy and qebsmall you can flout economic reason and business sense and get it for a steal You don't like other peoples points of view and then you insult them..really you don't deserve to be on this forum You assist no one. hth I love other people's points if view. I just call bull$hit when I see it. Not sure you've assisted anyone either btw. All I see is double think/speak and contradictions, generic advice ( which you've been pulled up for by other members in your field or better) and links to your google community which doesn't actually inform on any topic. Still waiting for you to qualify your statement about levelled and retained blocks going for 30k less than equivalent flat blocks In an area that is priced in relation to similar factors in the same development. I know I can provide examples of economic modelling regarding supply and demand being the driver of land price rather than the cost of earthworks being used to discount blocks "to make them more affordable". Re: Excessive site costs? 77Jun 10, 2016 7:36 pm Ponzu I know I can provide economic modelling regarding supply and demand being the driver of land price rather than the cost of earthworks being used to discount blocks "to make them more affordable". HA HA HA HA LOL Do you think the battlers want your economic modelling on excessive site costs?... What is it you do again? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Excessive site costs? 78Jun 10, 2016 7:54 pm StructuralBIMGuy Ponzu I know I can provide economic modelling regarding supply and demand being the driver of land price rather than the cost of earthworks being used to discount blocks "to make them more affordable". HA HA HA HA LOL Do you think the battlers want your economic modelling on excessive site costs?... What is it you do again? Oh "hahaha lol ok" is a response I've seen from you before when questioning others. But when questioned your self you slink away. I'm an auditor by trade, CPA qualification. I work in financial crime (AML/CTF), what I do, keeps you safe at night and you don't even know it. Economic modelling is directly specific to your claim. Still waiting for the evidence of earthworks being a driver of land price. My offer to modelling is simply to evidence you're wrong, and given you can't show what I've asked for, there's not much more to say. "Battlers" which you keep referring to don't want generic advice either, they want specific, cost effective and useful advice, which depending on the thread ranges from generic to "most people can't afford it because xyz". You and I have had our differences but at least I do t direct members to pages that have obfuscated "simulations" as solutions for problems they are having. So.....30k cheaper levelled and retained undeveloped block up for future sale in the same devolpment (all other factors being equal), go.... Re: Excessive site costs? 79Jun 10, 2016 7:58 pm There is only one rule in real estate (including land) value and that is Location,Location, and Location. Developers know that and in conjunction with real estate agents will carefully work out what they can get, block by block. They will even pre-sell to themselves or allies(builders) or speculators to create faux demand and fear of shortage (you will miss out because its 40% pre-sold on release) You can bet that buying from a developer nothing will be a bargain, because they like their profit to the max, and you will only get a bargain if there is a fire sale (and only if you are lucky) in which case every man and his dog will be there and you will likely pay full anyway. When the estate is substantially sold then pre-sold blocks will miraculously reappear as relisted or speculators will be cashing in their chips. So it's not just economics of land production, slope or no slope that affects the price of land but also market forces (supply and demand) and demand distortions through speculation, land banking and the art of marketing. Art of marketing is as it is said selling sand to Arabs or ice to Eskimos (no racism intended) Market distortions could be far more significant than the anticipated owner's site costs. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Excessive site costs? 80Jun 10, 2016 8:06 pm building-expert There is only one rule in real estate (including land) value and that is Location,Location, and Location. Developers know that and in conjunction with real estate agents will carefully work out what they can get, block by block. They will even pre-sell to themselves or allies(builders) or speculators to create faux demand and fear of shortage (you will miss out because its 40% pre-sold on release) You can bet that buying from a developer nothing will be a bargain, because they like their profit to the max, and you will only get a bargain if there is a fire sale (and only if you are lucky) in which case every man and his dog will be there and you will likely pay full anyway. When the estate is substantially sold then pre-sold blocks will miraculously reappear as relisted or speculators will be cashing in their chips. So it's not just economics of land production, slope or no slope that affects the price of land but also market forces (supply and demand) and demand distortions through speculation, land banking and the art of marketing. Art of marketing is as it is said selling sand to Arabs or ice to Eskimos (no racism intended) Market distortions could be far more significant than the anticipated owner's site costs. You raise a good point about perceived demand vs availability although this all adds to supply and demand. Even if it's perceived. Of course exceptions happen, but they are not the rule. Growth corridors don't happen because developers Are reducing costs, but because there is demand. Supply is often manipulated to show an increased demand in development areas. Any new estate is proof, each estate has YEARS of development potential, but it is released in stages to build on demand. 40k to 80k to 100k until the blocks I. The area are fetching 400k such as point cook and Williams landing in Melbournes west (which are all rubbish btw) when Laverton closer to the city is half the price, but a bad area (for now). How good is Simeon?! Always taking time to help others out! Wish we were building in NSW and could work together. Thanks for all that you do! 7 6670 Is anyone building with Mojo and have a recent site cost tender 0 16078 Henley should give you some indication of site costs. Too many variable to give you any reasonable accuracy 1 1943 |