Browse Forums General Discussion Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 41Mar 22, 2015 4:46 pm To me, upwards of $480 is a lot of money for an inspection. The designing engineers fee usually starts at around $220 for a footing or slab inspection depending on how complex. An engineer would have a better idea than a building inspector. I reckon you would get a better and cheaper inspection from engaging a different engineer if you were worried. You might not get a flash report of standard print outs but it would bring just as much comfort Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 42Mar 22, 2015 4:49 pm Also, Does any other state have a subsidence policy like QLD? Basically if there is subsidence issues at a later date the QBCC will cover it out of the premium fund as long as the engineer and builder have the right paperwork in place. If the right paperwork isn't in place then the builder or engineer has to cough up Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 43Mar 22, 2015 7:25 pm 33amc To me, upwards of $480 is a lot of money for an inspection. The designing engineers fee usually starts at around $220 for a footing or slab inspection depending on how complex. An engineer would have a better idea than a building inspector. I reckon you would get a better and cheaper inspection from engaging a different engineer if you were worried. You might not get a flash report of standard print outs but it would bring just as much comfort I agree it would be far better to employ an engineer for structural inspections, but I don't know how well-versed a structural engineer would be when it comes to other important issues like waterproofing, plumbing, electrical and general code compliance and quality stuff unrelated to the structure. I guess a building inspector is, in a way, a jack of all trades, master of none. Take a step up to non-residential, where I work, and the building inspector (Building Certifier actually) is even more of a jack of all trades and definitely master of none, but that is no criticism. A non-residential building is a very complicated beast, requiring input from various engineering disciplines, architects etc. The certifiers refer back to the respective discipline's expertise regularly. For what it's worth, when I write an engineer's report, my "disclaimer" is usually one paragraph that states in details what I actually looked at, and another paragraph stating any assumptions made. That's all. But to be fair, I have the luxury of only having to report specifically on electrical/comms/fire stuff which is my area of expertise, I don't have to report on fifteen other disciplines like a building inspector would. Building Services Engineer Renovating our 1960's modernist home in Brisbane https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=82091 Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 44Mar 22, 2015 8:35 pm That's a fair way to look at a general building inspector. TBH, a general building inspector would Know SFA about plumbing and electrical, maybe just the non critical basics. I'm not sure how it works in places other than QLD but this is how it works here.... -Designing engineer does footing and slab inspection. -Council plumbing inspector does plumbing pre slab inspection (drainage etc) -Building certifier (or council depending on region) does frame inspection -Council plumbing inspector does rough in inspection -Building certifier does final inspection -Council plumbing inspector does plumbing final inspection -Electrical is self certification Here in QLD, a council inspector doesn't mean a slack one, it means a tough one. Believe me the plumbing inspectors will be far more thorough than any building inspector. Does a building inspector pull out gauges and pressure check water and drainage pipes? Does a building inspector check to make sure certain pipes aren't run over distance? The plans don't tell you this either, so there isn't even anything for the inspector to check against. Does a building inspector know how to calculate which diameter cable and what can run off each circuit? The plans don't tell you this either. The electrical board operates completely separate from the building commission and is full of audits and a lot more liability against electricians for faulty work. I'm not saying there isn't d o d g y electricians out there, just pointing out the electrical side of things is a lot more controlled and has methods far beyond what a general inspector would be capable of. Once again they might pick the basics like a point too close to a splash zone but they aren't going to be capable of checking whether earths were soldered and I'd place a quiet bet they don't throw a meter on each output like the testing electrician does. All they really have knowledge on is general building compliance, and from my experience in QLD, they are reasonable at that. The building inspectors engaged by the builder are also an independent inspector don't forget, but they usually do form a good relationship with the builder so there may be some flexibility applied here and there (which the code allows for) Any building inspector you employ (once again from my experience) is mostly quality control based reporting. Any inspector worth walking onto site will mostly get the important things like bracing and tie down right. Please feel free to chime in if this procedure does not apply in other states. Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 45Mar 22, 2015 8:46 pm Quote: I'm not sure how it works in places other than QLD but this is how it works here.... -Designing engineer does footing and slab inspection. -Council plumbing inspector does plumbing pre slab inspection (drainage etc) -Building certifier (or council depending on region) does frame inspection -Council plumbing inspector does rough in inspection -Building certifier does final inspection -Council plumbing inspector does plumbing final inspection -Electrical is self certification That is pretty close to the mark for us here in NSW as well. Plus waterproofing and termite barriers as well. Stewie Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 46Mar 22, 2015 9:26 pm I can really only comment specifically on electrical, but in my experience it is very much uncontrolled in Qld actually. There basically are no independent inspectors or audits. In theory they exist, but the ESO is so ridiculously under-staffed that there are only enough inspectors to do reactive work after things go wrong. In other states, the electricians must submit a form for particular types of work which then must be inspected and certified by an inspector, which in my opinion it should be. It seems fundamentally wrong to me that the two trades (electrical and gas) with the most potential for accidental death and serious injury are self-certified. I have been involved in too many forensic-engineering incidents and seen too much unsafe work for me to possibly endorse self certification Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 47Mar 23, 2015 8:12 am Queensland and NSW seem to have a much more rigorous control system than the one operating in Victoria if our build is anything to go by.
No engineering inspection of footings and slab and our slab and footings were designed in the absence of a contour survey. No council plumbing inspection of pre-slab and drainage. The building surveyor who inspected our pre-slab specifically stated they do not inspect plumbing or drainage - though the builder continues to assert that the BS inspected and passed the plumbing and drainage. The BS also passed the pre-slab three days before we were informed by the builder that there was a problem with the site levels. BS did the frame inspection for what it was worth. No final inspection of plumbing. It was left up to us to discover that the stormwater pipes were at ground level at the back of the house and that the overflow relief gully was in the wrong spot - on the high point of our land. The problems would have been discovered earlier if the surveyor had required the builder to grade the land away from the slab to the required level. Electrical is self certification here as well. The builder and the designer have both stated that the house would not have been passed by the surveyor unless it complied with the building regs. That is their out. "We have the certificates, therefore there is no problem". The builder to this day denies any knowledge of any problems with the plumbing despite the fact that the VBA issued the plumbers with a rectification order to re-do our stormwater pipes. It was left up to us to sort out our overflow relief gully as best we could; it was considered a land level problem, not a plumbing problem - and there is no conversation between the plumbing and building sections of the VBA. Not that the conversation would do us any good anyway as the building side has no authority to issue rectification orders as far as I can understand. The BS, on the other hand, has informed us that he relies on the accuracy of certificates and plans being presented to him. That's his out and the Occupancy permit signed by him specifically states: "An occupancy permit is not evidence that the building or part of a building to which it applies complies with the Building Act 1993 or the building regulations." And that leaves the homeowner where? Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 48Mar 23, 2015 8:13 am 33amc To me, upwards of $480 is a lot of money for an inspection. The designing engineers fee usually starts at around $220 for a footing or slab inspection depending on how complex. An engineer would have a better idea than a building inspector. I reckon you would get a better and cheaper inspection from engaging a different engineer if you were worried. You might not get a flash report of standard print outs but it would bring just as much comfort Yes it is a lot of money for an inspection but then everything is relative. At this point distinction should be made between building inspector and building consultant. Building inspectors carry out statutory mandatory stage inspections that are part of a building permit and typically get paid around $100 from the building surveyor. What will you get for a $100? In fact there was a famous court case where someone fell off a bacony whilst horsing around and sued because handrail was slightly too low. BS relied on certificate from BI but it was held that because he only paid a pittance he could not rely in good faith on the certificate. It is worth noting that entry level for BI is a diploma in BS plus some time working experience for BS. BI is a checker and probably has never built anything. Building consultant on the other hand ideally should be someone with higher tertiary qualifications (degree etc)and extensive experience in building preferably several decades and also extensive inspection experience. So when you are comparing BI with BC you are not comparing apples with apples. Is more than $480 too much? Value is in the eye of the owner. In my case my inspections are $600 or $650 for a large home (over 40sq) but you get unequalled qualifications and experience + cloud cover. What is cloud cover? It's like having a doctor on call. Anytime you have a question or an issue help is just phone call away. No one else does this level of service. I guess B-E is not for everyone (and it does not need to be) but if you are in real $hit who will you call?. All of a sudden it will seem cheap. If you were in trouble with law and needed someone to save you, you would not blink if your lawyer told you $500/hr It's all relative Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 49Mar 23, 2015 10:50 pm Liliana And that leaves the homeowner where? Outside of QLD or NSW then by the sounds of it..... Sorry, I've got a silly sense of humour. Also sorry to hear about your nightmare. I've done jobs before where there are issues obtaining ORG heights. My plumber dug down past the last point and put in what they call a reflux valve which got everything compliant (this example was on a renovation) There are always ways to fix issues, the too hard basket attitude you got is very disappointing Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 50Mar 23, 2015 10:51 pm building-expert 33amc To me, upwards of $480 is a lot of money for an inspection. The designing engineers fee usually starts at around $220 for a footing or slab inspection depending on how complex. An engineer would have a better idea than a building inspector. I reckon you would get a better and cheaper inspection from engaging a different engineer if you were worried. You might not get a flash report of standard print outs but it would bring just as much comfort Yes it is a lot of money for an inspection but then everything is relative. At this point distinction should be made between building inspector and building consultant. Building inspectors carry out statutory mandatory stage inspections that are part of a building permit and typically get paid around $100 from the building surveyor. What will you get for a $100? In fact there was a famous court case where someone fell off a bacony whilst horsing around and sued because handrail was slightly too low. BS relied on certificate from BI but it was held that because he only paid a pittance he could not rely in good faith on the certificate. It is worth noting that entry level for BI is a diploma in BS plus some time working experience for BS. BI is a checker and probably has never built anything. Building consultant on the other hand ideally should be someone with higher tertiary qualifications (degree etc)and extensive experience in building preferably several decades and also extensive inspection experience. So when you are comparing BI with BC you are not comparing apples with apples. Is more than $480 too much? Value is in the eye of the owner. In my case my inspections are $600 or $650 for a large home (over 40sq) but you get unequalled qualifications and experience + cloud cover. What is cloud cover? It's like having a doctor on call. Anytime you have a question or an issue help is just phone call away. No one else does this level of service. I guess B-E is not for everyone (and it does not need to be) but if you are in real $hit who will you call?. All of a sudden it will seem cheap. If you were in trouble with law and needed someone to save you, you would not blink if your lawyer told you $500/hr It's all relative Gee, there is a lot of BS in that post. Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 51Mar 24, 2015 10:29 am Yes there is a lot of BS in there, that's because Building Surveyors administer Building Act and Regulations in Vic and it is the single most important key to compliance. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 52Mar 24, 2015 11:13 am BS check the NCC or BCA which incidentially anyone can do as they are now free. They also check compliance to basic AS etc..but they are not licenced to design or certify structural components which are non-compiant ..look around most complants are about non compliance.Non Compliance doesnt necessarily mean failure, a component can be over designed, and a BS can only advise you it's NON- COMPLIANT. Finally it is up to an engineer to determine "Fit for Purpose" and that is the way it is at the Council,Commission and Courts. LOL,BS serve a purpose but they are not as important as some make them out to be, nor is importance determined by how much they charge...as engineers charge less Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 53Mar 24, 2015 12:56 pm StructuralBIMGuy Yes, that is very true, I find clients prefer the work done effectively and efficiently rather than have some report written with 2 pages of disclaimers, and then they still have to find an engineer because they are not certified to deal with those issues... If you were a layperson complaining about disclaimers I would ignore your comments on the grounds of ignorance but you claim to be an engineer. As registered engineer you are required to have professional indemnity insurance and abide by your insurer's terms that also include disclaimers and limitations. Indeed if I were to engage your services i would be shown terms of agreement that would include disclaimers. How can you complain about property inspector and building consultants disclaimers when you have them yourself? Is that not a double standard? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 54Mar 24, 2015 1:11 pm 33amc If only a builder could put at the bottom of their build specs if they miss something or do something wrong they aren't liable ha ha ha I find it intriguing that you are lamenting that builders don't have protection of disclaimers in the same way that property inspectors do. It's to do with the fact that builders get paid a lot of money (WRITE THEIR OWN TICKET) for the promise to build. Would you have it so that builder takes all the money and then say oops! sorry about what I promised, here is something less, be happy? Building business is well paid but tough business, you promise a lot and you have to deliver a lot, too tough for you? Find something else. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 55Mar 24, 2015 4:17 pm 33amc Liliana And that leaves the homeowner where? Outside of QLD or NSW then by the sounds of it..... Sorry, I've got a silly sense of humour. Also sorry to hear about your nightmare. I've done jobs before where there are issues obtaining ORG heights. My plumber dug down past the last point and put in what they call a reflux valve which got everything compliant (this example was on a renovation) There are always ways to fix issues, the too hard basket attitude you got is very disappointing Yes, we did discuss installing a reflux valve with a plumber last Christmas. It would have meant excavating 1.6mts deep and I couldn't really see how this was going to be accomplished without compromising our slab. There was actually no issue in obtaining the ORG height. It could easily have been located outside the laundry where the ground level would have been low enough to accommodate it. As far as I can see, it was placed on the high point of our land because the designer had stipulated in the plans that the builder was to ensure the house was "greywater ready, providing single junction between grey and blackwater water, junction to be easily accessible from backyard on the western side of the house". Even then the ORG would have been compliant if the house slab had been higher. According to the designer she instructed the builder to lower the house slab to resolve a problem with ????? (who knows). The builder refuses to say whether he lowered the house slab or not and the designer's datum was not a fixed point anyway. StructuralBIMGuy ,BS serve a purpose but they are not as important as some make them out to be, It is very difficult to discuss issues of building control when each state seems to operate differently. In Victoria you have no choice about whether to employ a building surveyor or not. They are the ones who give you a building permit and they are the ones who sign off on the house. Engineers have little involvement. An engineer designed our footings and slab but, as I have already mentioned, seemed happy to do this without a contour survey - which to me now seems odd. I have also tried to ask our engineer for advice - in particular I have asked him questions about our slab height and whether it could be lowered at will by the designer and builder. His advice was to ask the building surveyor!! The point Building Expert makes about Building inspectors is important too. Our building surveyor employed an inspector to do his legwork. Not once did he set foot on our site although he does write me letters in which he tells me he "does not believe there are any problems with the dwelling" and anyone who did Philosophy 101 is aware of the difference between beliefs and knowledge. My advice to anyone building in Victoria is to be very careful because the system of building control here is not what it should be and you would be wise to pay somebody to be on your side. Just make sure you find somebody competent. Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 56Mar 24, 2015 4:51 pm building-expert StructuralBIMGuy Yes, that is very true, I find clients prefer the work done effectively and efficiently rather than have some report written with 2 pages of disclaimers, and then they still have to find an engineer because they are not certified to deal with those issues... How can you complain about property inspector and building consultants disclaimers when you have them yourself? Is that not a double standard? You assume to know everthing? Ive never needed to hide behind disclaimers as a contractor nor as an engineer. I also give freely advice on this board LOL, without disclaimers. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 57Mar 24, 2015 5:27 pm Liliana My advice to anyone building in Victoria is to be very careful because the system of building control here is not what it should be and you would be wise to pay somebody to be on your side. Just make sure you find somebody competent. Also add to the checklist Certificates, registration, qualifications, finances, references,claims,etc,etc and avoid disclaimers. Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 58Mar 24, 2015 5:55 pm StructuralBIMGuy building-expert StructuralBIMGuy Yes, that is very true, I find clients prefer the work done effectively and efficiently rather than have some report written with 2 pages of disclaimers, and then they still have to find an engineer because they are not certified to deal with those issues... How can you complain about property inspector and building consultants disclaimers when you have them yourself? Is that not a double standard? You assume to know everthing? Ive never needed to hide behind disclaimers as a contractor nor as an engineer. I also give freely advice on this board LOL, without disclaimers. Disclaimers arent for hiding behind. You again have missed the point. Are we to assume that you are a) not an engineer b) are an engineer but operate without indemnity insurance or c) a troll? Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 59Mar 24, 2015 6:46 pm Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Well that says it all? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: Are building inspections during a build worth it? 60Mar 24, 2015 6:51 pm I don't know any engineers that charge less than a building inspector/surveyor. We all generally charge about the same (around $200-250/hr for an RPEQ/CPEng). Whilst our disclaimers on our reports are very brief or non-existent, our fee agreements have about 3 pages of conditions and limitations of liability as per Consult Australia standard form. All practising professional engineers do this as far as I aware. No one would be crazy or stupid enough not to do this. In any case, your PI insurer would probably kick you to the kerb if you didn't. You have mandatory building inspections and privately engaged building inspections. The difference between the two comes down to inspecting the building so it's safe and… 3 13030 Can you give advice on how to get missing certificates needed for a form 21? Our bank requires us to provide one but we are missing 4 building certificates from our first… 3 56820 i would suggest nothing is unreasonable for PCI. we did all sorts, including checking the hot water, checking all the GPO's had power, testing that the showers were… 9 79452 |