Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Dec 03, 2014 4:32 pm After reading this forum for a year it's easy to get the impression that the average builder will do a substandard job, that the home owner needs to know what to look for in order to pick up on the builders and tradespeople's mistakes before they are covered over and many, many people receive a standard of work that falls far below expectations. Assuming this isn't an exaggerated view I have to ask the question. Why do we pay them to build us homes at all? If any other industry displayed this level of incompetence they would be banned from practising. And my next question is, if the home owner practically needs to become a builder themselves just to ensure the work they receive is to standard then what's the point? I've gotten the impression that the entire building industry isn't to be trusted. That any dealings with it are fraught with heartache and sub-standard work. Or is it just this site? Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 2Dec 03, 2014 4:58 pm strawlizzy Assuming this isn't an exaggerated view....... No need to asssume, there are many examples if you look. Also, many building 'professionals' are not up to speed with the regulations. Again, there are numerous examples if you look. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 3Dec 03, 2014 5:05 pm I think you have to get the right perspective on this The fact is that there are over 20,000 building practitioners in Victora and it is only dozens that feature on this forum regularly. In a vast majority of cases you never hear about builders that go about their job professionally and do a good job and then if there is a complaint handle it and atone before it gets out of hand. So it is just like a hospital, just because it is full of sick people it does not mean that everyone in wider society is just as sick However yes there is a lot of bad workmanship happening and there are many d0dgy builders and many people have been ruined. So you need control your investment and that means project control. Project control is not the same as blind trust. Blind trust is not the same as checking, verifying ,correcting and monitoring. If you are going to be throwing money bags to the builder in blind trust, then well???? You could be calling me when you are in trouble but if you are really smart you could call me before you get into trouble. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 4Dec 03, 2014 8:16 pm Quote: You could be calling me when you are in trouble but if you are really smart you could call me before you get into trouble. You should copyright that statement! Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 5Dec 04, 2014 11:55 am Thanks for the response. I was afraid of coming across as overly negative with this post, but it seems that it a reasonable question to be asking especially before heading off into building project. One thing that has struck me has been the overwhelming satisfaction that owner builders have in their process and final completion. Although many run over time and over budget and have their share of issues too, few of them ever say they regret going that route. Is it because when problems arise they are known to the owner, controllable and ultimately the owners responsibility to fix that leads to this higher overall satisfaction? Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 6Dec 05, 2014 8:23 am The big problem from my experience is the way builders licences are handed out , you can get one basically with no real experience in the industry, In my view you should only be able to apply for one with minimum 5 years post qualifying this includes every one from apprentices through to uni people .The amount of uni Builders I have come across who have absolutely no idea what they are doing at a practical level is very alarming Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 7Dec 05, 2014 2:09 pm building-expert The fact is that there are over 20,000 building practitioners in Victora and it is only dozens that feature on this forum regularly.. Are you qualified to make that statement? I dont think so. We are not allowed to name and shame, and we really have no idea what percentage of the total trade are incompetent because of the sheer number of unreported cases (to this forum anyway). strawlizzy I was afraid of coming across as overly negative with this post, but it seems that it a reasonable question to be asking especially before heading off into building project. strawlizzy One thing that has struck me has been the overwhelming satisfaction that owner builders have in their process and final completion. Although many run over time and over budget and have their share of issues too, few of them ever say they regret going that route. Is it because when problems arise they are known to the owner, controllable and ultimately the owners responsibility to fix that leads to this higher overall satisfaction? Certain strengths and weaknesses will predispose you to taking on, or leaving certain challenges. The best thing to do is engage your own independent building inspector if you are not sure about the process, and make sure you and he have unimpeded access to the building site during construction, and make sure the contract allows you to withhold payments for sub standard work. Get a lawyer to oversee the building contract, just dont sign it on the spot. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 8Dec 06, 2014 2:01 am strawlizzy After reading this forum for a year it's easy to get the impression that the average builder will do a substandard job, that the home owner needs to know what to look for in order to pick up on the builders and tradespeople's mistakes before they are covered over and many, many people receive a standard of work that falls far below expectations. Assuming this isn't an exaggerated view I have to ask the question. Why do we pay them to build us homes at all? If any other industry displayed this level of incompetence they would be banned from practising. And my next question is, if the home owner practically needs to become a builder themselves just to ensure the work they receive is to standard then what's the point? I've gotten the impression that the entire building industry isn't to be trusted. That any dealings with it are fraught with heartache and sub-standard work. Or is it just this site? In my opinion I would say majority of people who come onto these forums just want to complain about their process anyway, this is a small fraction of the amount of people who actually build. I'd take it with a pinch of salt, otherwise you may as well set yourself up for a pessimistic building experience. Coming from the building industry I know the challenges that are faced with on a daily basis, dealing with trades, dealing with clients, dealing with people from the office and dealing with suppliers. I can safely say it isn't an easy job being a builder/building supervisor since you're trusted with client's 'babies' and especially if your clients are going to build only one house in their lifetime. Owner building is not the answer all the time and depends on your financial constraints, but also your building knowledge plays a large part. A lot of owner builder's think you can just openly build a house with no actual knowledge of each fundamental element. You know how to drive a car right? Well what if you drove blind, would you do it? Of course not. That is why you have building companies. I won't stand behind every company and say they do it 100% right because I guarantee even the best companies still make errors or do it wrong, but most will do it a hell of a lot efficiently than someone without building experience. I think you're coming off negative but as I said earlier this site is mainly driven around negativity and people who want to complain about their experience. Some, not all, complain because they're ignorant about building and how it works, so they just choose to vent their frustrations to people who will listen to them and say, "Yeah i agree, that is wrong" and "You should make them fix it", when most don't even know what they're looking at themselves, ha! I think as a few people have said on this thread, if you don't know yourself get a building inspector, but even building inspector's get it wrong, no one is perfect, no building company is perfect. If after all this builder's and tradesmen still worry you, i recommend you just rent for the rest of your life. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 9Dec 06, 2014 3:50 am AussieDreamin In my opinion I would say majority of people who come onto these forums just want to complain about their process anyway, this is a small fraction of the amount of people who actually build. AussieDreamin .....but as I said earlier this site is mainly driven around negativity and people who want to complain about their experience. I won't say that you are wrong because I have no statistical evidence to the contrary nor would any be available but I will say that I don't agree with you. I believe that the majority of people who come to Homeone are in the process of building their own home, many being bushy tailed, naive, trusting and looking to share their journey and exchange information. Unfortunately as per Vernon Sanders Law; "Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". There is no doubt that Homeone Forum members and visitors benefit from the knowledge gained from other people's building experiences and that those who experience difficulties receive various forms of support from other forum members. Homeone Forum is a positive site. AussieDreamin Some, not all, complain because they're ignorant about building and how it works, so they just choose to vent their frustrations to people who will listen to them and say, "Yeah i agree, that is wrong" and "You should make them fix it", when most don't even know what they're looking at themselves, ha! A bit harsh but I have to agree on this one. As with any forum, you have to sort the wheat from the chaff but the best course is to post questions in the correct sub forum where the industry professionals and others with good subject knowledge are most likely to see them. Some questions concern important issues but if they are posted in the New Home sub forum, they often do attract poor answers and are soon 'lost' whereas if they were posted as a separate thread with a good title in a more appropriate sub forum, then many others including later visitors who find the thread by doing a forum search would benefit from better informed comments. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 10Dec 06, 2014 6:06 am qebtel building-expert The fact is that there are over 20,000 building practitioners in Victora and it is only dozens that feature on this forum regularly.. Are you qualified to make that statement? I dont think so. And how do we find someone that is qualified? What would qualifications have to be? Perhaps you can help me out: 1 Highest qualifications in building from preferably one of the world's best universities, maybe MU + QS would be nice 2 High level of refresh with follow up education, maybe building surveying, regulations,thermal imaging,law? 3 Extensive experience as builder/developer, designer in all types of construction, preferably 4 decades+ 4 Extensive experience in established and new home inspection + over 5000 homes inspected, 100,000 defects discovered, thousands of reports written, hundreds of disputes handled, dozens of VCAT cases attended. what have I left out? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 11Dec 06, 2014 6:31 am qebtel The best thing to do is engage your own independent building inspector if you are not sure about the process, and make sure you and he have unimpeded access to the building site during construction, and make sure the contract allows you to withhold payments for sub standard work. Get a lawyer to oversee the building contract, just dont sign it on the spot. 1 You cannot have unimpeded access to site. When you sign building contract you give right of exclusive possession to the builder and with that responsibility for site security and visitor safety as well as OH&S. You can have your regular visits (as many as reasonable) but as builder I would not want owner to hang around like a bad smell. If you did that on my site you would get notice of substantial breach with intention to end the contract, and if you did it again I would end the contract. I would have my profit without having to finish your job and you would have to find another builder at higher cost to complete. Think about it. 2 This week I did a pre contract consultation on a 2 unit development. At the end of consultation I was shown another standard HIA concert with yellow markings. I was told that before me they got a legal advice and why did I not recommend certain clauses be struck out as their solicitor did? When I had a good look at markings I found that a least two of the clauses marked for striking out were in fact for the benefit of the owner. Others were reflections of common law rights that even if you did strike them out they would be allowed anyway under common law. 3 None of the standard contracts will allow you to withhold payments and I doubt if any of the builders will allow it in special conditions. Try it and let me know. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 12Dec 06, 2014 2:06 pm My one time building experience was incredibly positive. The trades were fantastic. I was expecting the worst after being on the forum but they were all incredibly professional and respectful. There are lots of threads with a bit of good and a bit of bad I guess. I didn't know what to expect really but choosing a reputable company is important. Some things are unavoidable, such as the brickie shortages I've read about. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 14Dec 06, 2014 3:33 pm building-expert qebtel The best thing to do is engage your own independent building inspector if you are not sure about the process, and make sure you and he have unimpeded access to the building site during construction, and make sure the contract allows you to withhold payments for sub standard work. Get a lawyer to oversee the building contract, just dont sign it on the spot. 1 You cannot have unimpeded access to site. When you sign building contract you give right of exclusive possession to the builder and with that responsibility for site security and visitor safety as well as OH&S. You can have your regular visits (as many as reasonable) but as builder I would not want owner to hang around like a bad smell. If you did that on my site you would get notice of substantial breach with intention to end the contract, and if you did it again I would end the contract. I would have my profit without having to finish your job and you would have to find another builder at higher cost to complete. Think about it. 2 This week I did a pre contract consultation on a 2 unit development. At the end of consultation I was shown another standard HIA concert with yellow markings. I was told that before me they got a legal advice and why did I not recommend certain clauses be struck out as their solicitor did? When I had a good look at markings I found that a least two of the clauses marked for striking out were in fact for the benefit of the owner. Others were reflections of common law rights that even if you did strike them out they would be allowed anyway under common law. 3 None of the standard contracts will allow you to withhold payments and I doubt if any of the builders will allow it in special conditions. Try it and let me know. Are you saying that you always have to pay the builders invoices, even if the stage isn't finished? Perhaps they have to fix up items you've found on your inspections? Thanks Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 15Dec 06, 2014 9:25 pm I came to homeone after our 'builder' allowed our slab to be constructed 590mm too high. I came in asking technical advise as the builder was blowing us off when asking to confirm height and then poured it anyway despite being asked not to. So initially it wasn't to whinge but 12 moths after the slab was laid and still no resolution in the substandard world of tribunal....hell yes it is lol We had paid the deposit but have not paid the progress claim as the job was not finished. It was a commercial decision....pay it and kiss goodbye to a front end loaded $70k or not pay and pay interest if ever made too. We demolished our slab under council order 7 months after it was laid. What we have learned... 1) get an inspector BEFORE the slab is laid and at all other critical stages ...so yes you are right become the builder as such. 2) In all walks of life and professions there are incapable people, careless people and con men. 3) things don't always go bad and there are some excellent tradies, so just in case. 4) everything in writing even the smallest insignificant thing may be the deciding factor in your favour If you are worried about the builder don't sign with him, there are plenty of others! Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 16Dec 07, 2014 6:17 pm Tim65 " A trade does not require great skill or a high IQ ". this has to be the dumbest statement I have read in very long time +1 I think the comment is inconsiderate and demeaning of all tradies and is in bad faith. As someone who has spent a lifetime working productively with trades I cannot agree. Sure there are some that are badly trained, inconsiderate and not caring and some are downright stupid but vast majority are decent people earning a living. To a large extent they are only as good as you (a reflection of you). If you are good at what you do, good trades will follow you because you will look after them and they can make a decent living working for you. I have decades long term working relationships with many great people in the trade. You are the captain, if you set a high standard of leadership and pay your men well they will follow and you will get great results. Just throwing bags of money at them in blind trust is not leadership it's stupidity. If you don't know what you are doing, picking up tradies from a pool of leftovers, they can't make money on your job, why should anyone care? Or they will just take your money and run. So next time you complain about tradies look at yourself first. And yes, good tradesmanship does require great skill. As for IQ. I know of many tradies that have dropped out of school and made much more money than many with degrees. How's that on your IQ scale? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 17Dec 08, 2014 8:05 am I agree with BE to a point. We naively trusted our builder to do the right thing. There were warning signs that we ignored. The continual errors on the drawings and tender despite emails and calls confirming things. A year on in the process of NCAT he has finally given us a copy of the window schedule - no surprise it has 2 windows missing all together! So yes, when we realised he was not accurate, we should have run...very fast! Being trusting and desperate to have our house finished before I die -we didn't. I agree this does reflect on us somewhat in as much as we indicated that sub standard was ok...it really wasn't. We have just owner built our (replacement) house as we had to demolish the slab of his build. We put our new slab down 1st October and today painters are in, final fit out next week and we move in - 14 weeks all up from the day we broke ground! Our tradies this time have been wonderful, we have set clear expectations and standards, looked after them, communicated well and with not one problem. If they were aware of the previous mess (and no we didn't tell them..apparently it was so left field what was done that it seems to be a story that is rumour worthy), they were themselves embarrassed that a fellow 'builder' would allow something like this to happen. That was reassuring! The problem with signing with a builder is the sales staff are charming and tell you, yes, no problem, we can do that and once you have signed the contract it is too late! You have no control over the good, the bad, or the stupid so that's a bit different and not exactly a reflection on you as a client. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 18Dec 08, 2014 12:34 pm building-expert qebtel building-expert The fact is that there are over 20,000 building practitioners in Victora and it is only dozens that feature on this forum regularly.. Are you qualified to make that statement? I dont think so. And how do we find someone that is qualified? What would qualifications have to be? Perhaps you can help me out: 1 Highest qualifications in building from preferably one of the world's best universities, maybe MU + QS would be nice 2 High level of refresh with follow up education, maybe building surveying, regulations,thermal imaging,law? 3 Extensive experience as builder/developer, designer in all types of construction, preferably 4 decades+ 4 Extensive experience in established and new home inspection + over 5000 homes inspected, 100,000 defects discovered, thousands of reports written, hundreds of disputes handled, dozens of VCAT cases attended. what have I left out? You've gone off on some tangent. Your quals and experience were not in question - but they dont give you access to statistics to prove "over 20,000 building practitioners in Victora and it is only only dozens that feature on this forum regularly", does it? How could you possibly be privy to the exact identity of the tradie/builder involved every complaint made on here? building-expert 1 You cannot have unimpeded access to site. When you sign building contract you give right of exclusive possession to the builder and with that responsibility for site security and visitor safety as well as OH&S. You can have your regular visits (as many as reasonable) but as builder I would not want owner to hang around like a bad smell. If you did that on my site you would get notice of substantial breach with intention to end the contract, and if you did it again I would end the contract. I would have my profit without having to finish your job and you would have to find another builder at higher cost to complete. Think about it. I dont like the sound of your conditions, I probably wouldnt hire you. I would never sign a contract that does not allow me the level of access I would want. Of course I dont want to hang around all day, but should I wish to conduct a daily inspection on my own, it must be allowed. If that's not possible, then Id never sign a building contract for a house. I wont be dictated to by arrogant builders. building-expert 2 This week I did a pre contract consultation [snip] Others were reflections of common law rights that even if you did strike them out they would be allowed anyway under common law. Thats fine, although to imply "dont use a solicitor experienced in building contracts" because you just happened to find one who is incompetent, is poor advice IMHO. building-expert 3 None of the standard contracts will allow you to withhold payments and I doubt if any of the builders will allow it in special conditions. Try it and let me know. You remind me of a real estate agent "sign my standard contract". Standard contracts are for sheeple - do not expect me to be one. I dont sign contracts unless they are to my satisfaction. I routinely modify every contract I have ever signed, including building contracts. Although I do understand the attitude you mention, I come up against belligerence, but they all capitulated when they see they cant coerce me. Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 19Dec 08, 2014 1:09 pm Tim65 " A trade does not require great skill or a high IQ ". this has to be the dumbest statement I have read in very long time Well then perhaps you could tell me which trade requires great skill ,or a high IQ? Because I would really like to know. Ive pretty well mastered all of the things Ive tried my hand at after a few goes. Any schmuck can learn to build a house frame or a fence, but not many can learn to play tennis at pro level, or likewise amass the knowledge to be a CPA in the same time frame. Slight difference in "skill" there, one takes a few months, the others take years... Re: If builders and tradespeople are supposedly so incompete 20Dec 08, 2014 2:33 pm qebtel Tim65 " A trade does not require great skill or a high IQ ". this has to be the dumbest statement I have read in very long time Well then perhaps you could tell me which trade requires great skill ,or a high IQ? Because I would really like to know. Ive pretty well mastered all of the things Ive tried my hand at after a few goes. Any schmuck can learn to build a house frame or a fence, but not many can learn to play tennis at pro level, or likewise amass the knowledge to be a CPA in the same time frame. Slight difference in "skill" there, one takes a few months, the others take years... this is the most ignorant view of the world i have ever had the displeasure of reading. electricians, plumbers, landscapers, builders. While i know how to "do" all of these things because ive not electrocuted myself, flooded my laundry, poisoned my trees or had my 10 seater table i built collapse on me doesn't make me masterfull in any of these occupations. all of those occupations require great skill and if these trades were not intelligent or require great skill we would not the technology and society we have today. as to IQ, just because IQ is not generally high as a entry requirement to these trades, you can definitely see examples of dumb trades vs ones that know what they're doing. I can guarantee you there exist plumbers that don't understand flow calculations and dont apply that logic to a drainage installation, while there are ones that do, because numbers dont hurt their brains. IQ as a measure is variable and is one of the poorest measures to apply against anything other than IQ. Perfect examples are the genius savants who wouldn't be able to tie their own shoelaces and despit ehaving insane IQ's are debilitaded by their other shortcomings. applying intelligence and being skillful in your trade isnt tied to IQ. We employe one mentally challenged individual to conduct the administration (within a team) of reposessions of assets. This guy despite being simple gets it, becaus ethe process is rock solid. He knows the policy and procedures inside out and delivers better than his collegues in 90% of cases. We sometimes (poorly, i know) joke we should hire more. I know plenty of CPAs and CAs in my line of work who I don't rate one bit. They make stupid errors in and out all day every day, and when I pull them up in audits, they give me the same guff - "who are you, are you a CPA, you don't know what you're talking about"...when i ask them "Am I wrong?" they usually shut up, because despite not being a CPA or CA I can generally audit the crap out of their work, because i am infinitely good with patterns and numbers despite not having a numeracy based education. Go figure. skill and mastery is learned over time. So while knocking two bits of wood together constitutes effectively what builders do most of the time, knowing hopw those bits of wood will stand teh test of time in the conditions takes years of experience and knowledge and observation to make the right decisions. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Thanks again Simeon for being so elaborate. Appreciate it. Its gives us a very idea. Kind Regards 4 3663 Look at your bill from the electricity company. It should detail the charges. You will need to do some estimating and some calculations. Then charge the… 8 4240 Site works are just about to start on our build with Blueprint in Midvale. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=106894 2 3947 |