Urgently seeking expert help! :).

Hi

Seeking some advice.

After six months of researching project and other builders we chose a builder and have a tender from them.
They are a good quality local builder, small-mid volume who do custom plans end-end similar to a project home.

We haven’t been able to find one single bad word about them and everyone says their work is excellent with high quality finishes.
For 259sqm the tender is $1280 square metre, plus add ons. We are building in a 12.15 BAL zone, established area and
gently sloping site on bearers and joists (P soil). It’s a KDR.

Inclusions on current quote
- Hardwood floors (blackbutt)
- 40mm benchtop with waterfall ends, 2PAC
- Stone to bathrooms
- 2.7 m high ceilings with square set cornices
- Daikin inverter ducted
- Decking (included in square metre)
- We have been advised their finishes are of a high standard by people who have built with them
- Downlight specs throughout
- Higher roof in garage etc
-
We spent a few months on the concept paying $1500 for drafting to the builder, and consider it perfect.

As we extended the size a little with ALL inclusions the price came in a little higher than we would have liked ($444,000 not including demo). However we
can save on that by doing driveways, air con and some others after handover by people we know through trades and pushing down
some of the add ons. So square metre price with finishes is about $1715 per square metre but we have room to move.

Now I am quite stressed because my husband wants to look at other builders to see if he can get it cheaper. We would have to
pay someone to draft entirely new plans, and take it to the builder he is looking at. The builder also comes well recommended by a friend but is very high end and I think too expensive for us.

My concern is that builder does his own estimating of a weekend, and has already told me he “can’t estimate every screw” as he doesn’t
have time. This to me signals alarm bells (variations). He’s also already told me it’s about 2,000 sq/m though he might be able to bring
it down “a bit” and is recommending an architect to draft plans. I am trying to explain that just tweaking plans isn’t good enough
and the builder will watch us like hawks on the design if we leave at the last minute, copyright issues.

I don’t see this will be any cheaper, in fact I think it will be more expensive. I am also concerned about the time factor as
No. 1 is on the way and this is effectively going back to the drawing board with the design. I really can’t imagine another design
now.

Can some experts in the trade or those with experience give some advice on this? I was previously told plans + builder is not worth
it unless you are in the 500K plus territory, which we jujst aren’t. How much are good plans (I know this varies a lot) and what are the pitfalls
or advantages.

I just feel we may be wasting time for no advantage, and if we go back to our first builder they will end up raising the tender price knowing
we’ve exhausted our option.

Can we negotiate with our current builder on price? Personally I feel we need to take out some of the inclusions and their quote is good
for the quality we know they offer.

Thanks all

Sorry for the long winded post. Really at what budget does a draftperson + builder become viable?

When builders use that language, they are trying it on. It means they are prepared to negotiate, which means he hasnt given you his best price. Caveat Emptor as usual.

Yes this is the second builder my husband is looking into. We would need to get new plans drafted if we were to choose him. While the mid-sized builder will add their 20%, I do not feel the smaller builder will use such accurate estimation. Our quote from the mid-size builder is very detailed.

Plus to change we would need to factor in the cost of going to get new plans done (and the time this takes) and I feel a risk of an independent builder and variations associated, though we had a good review from a friend their budget was much higher.

Is the $1715 (in total) sq/m for mid-high quality finishes with add ons, P soil, sloping site really too much? ($1280 square metre but with our add ons about $1700 though we have room to move by removing those). I am reluctant to change builders and don't think going independent will be cheaper than that? Bearing in mind we have excellent reports of the mid size local builder in terms of quality and service.

Hi Leksie5000,

I'm no expert but we did go down the building designer/builder path and it is expensive. You can count on going over the $2,000 sq/m; we did and that was doing all our painting, varnishing and tiling ourselves. We didn't even end up with skirting boards. If this is your first time building, I would avoid this option. There are too many things you don't know and you can end up paying too much for too little.

You also need to leave money in the kitty aside for a good building inspector because no matter how conscientious your builder is there are always things that will be overlooked.

I would also be very wary of a builder's "might be able to.....". From experience I know that this is called a carrot. Only trust what is in black and white and that way your builder won't be able to get a sudden attack of amnesia. Because believe me, even when it is in black and white, some builders won't give you what is in your contract unless you make them.

If your husband is really intent on trying to get the house done more cheaply you may just have to let him live through the experience of trying, but I would extract a written guarantee from husband and builder that the house does not go ahead unless you can get it done at a price you can afford.

Yes - on the subject of detailed quotes. Our small builder did not give a detailed quote. I queried it at the time with our designer but was told it is normal. Do not accept any quote that is not detailed.

Thanks very much for your reply I appreciate the advice. I feel our option we have chosen is already a good one and we just need to be reasonable about things. Air con for example can be done afterwards and kitchen can be reduced in terms of $. I'm kind of scared that by being afraid to make a choice and yes it's a big decision we will end up on a bad path. Plans + builder is complicated for first timers, not to mention expensive and we are not far off baby coming.

I think you have very good advice from Liliana

You have already done your homework and the design is what you want and have invested time with builder of your choice.
The only thing stopping you is cold feet from your husband and his hope of bringing the price down.
There is a lot more to this than just price and a lot more could go wrong.
I think you will be risking a lot for the prospect of lower price that may not materialise.
Talk to your builder on price and when you know you have done the best you can then get your husband to press the go button

Cheers

Hi building expert

We have someone who wishes to 'take away' the knockdown and states he has all associated permits etc to place on his property. This would certainly save us some money.

Can you advise what any potential pitfalls and things to watch out for here, are?

I'm unsure how to handle it with the contract, I don't wish to leave demolition out and find at the last minute he falls through.

Thanks

Get your builder to take on takeaway contractor as his subie

All good advice so far from Liliana and BE. Any builder whether large or small usually has a pretty good idea of how much to build a house just by past experience and a rough look at inclusions whether that is an overall price or by sq m.
For someone to say they " can’t estimate every screw" is BS. Most guys have a decent spreadsheet to quote off and they should be able to get the quote down to a very accurate amount. You don't need to know every screw but if you know that the job has 220 sq m of gyprock and your gyprocker is charging you $18 per sq m to supply and fix the plaster then it is pretty easy to work out.
My advice re copyright is as per a few other threads where people are better off employing a draftie, building designer or architect from the get go to draw the plans and insisting that they retain copyright - that way they have control and once drawn they are not at the behest of someone else and can hawk the plans around to whoever they like to get the best price.
If you get the plans redrawn it could take a lot longer plus quite a few extra $ so your husbands idea to save money may be misguided.

Stewie

Hi Leksie5000 I am certainly no expert and the advice given previously is great.

Just to share our story we went with a draftsman to get the house we wanted at a price we could live with. We are building on a slope and a volume builder wasn't a good fit for us. We got an initial design, tendered it out with builders for costing while we researched them to the best of our ability. The original estimates were too high and so the compromise began. It has taken time but now we're in final drawing/engineering with a builder we have great faith in.
I would advise you to go with the builder who has done the work to this point as you obviously like his work. Perhaps look at what you really need to make your home structurally sound and add the extras later.
Just my 20 cents worth mind, good luck

Thanks all for your kind advice. If we had gone with a drafts person initially that would have been one thing, we could have shopped plans. Now we've invested time and money in a builder who owns our custom plans. However I know they will do a good job. With a baby coming that increases my stress about the whole thing quite a bit I guess. I would like to be able to enjoy at least some of my maternity leave in our new house. Anyway hubby is persistent we are meeting with the other Monday. I dread going back to square one with design though Tracey did your plans get redrawn or you shopped the design/inclusions to make it affordable? How accurate was your drafts person on costs if at all, and how long did the plans take roughly. Did they go through council for you? Thanks

Here's a few links re demolishing or selling your existing home and a few things to be aware of. This would apply no matter whether you are selling the house to someone who is going to transport it elsewhere or you are demolishing it on site.
It seems to me one of the things that takes the longest is getting the water, electricity and gas terminated and having all the permits in place.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=72941
In particular cat_duncs last post regarding a soliciters letter that they can PM to you .
Also for general demolition ( the permits you need probably apply to whether you are removing or demolishing a house )
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=51180&hilit=Demolish+a+house+dummies+guide+to+a+stress+free+demolition

Stewie

Hey Leksie,

The plans were redrawn but as we were only at concept stage so that was fine, under our arrangement with the draftsman we could redraw until happy, nice bloke The draftsman helped us put them out to tender for initial costing plus we sourced our own. The process takes longer but we wanted it done properly. We are now waiting for engineering and final drawings before council. Not a quick process but a through one. Maybe talking to another builder will help your husband decide one way or the other and as Liliana put it "live through the experience"

I wish you well whatever you decide

I completely understand your husbands need to "have another look" and possibly save some money. I think everyone here understands that. But it already sounds like you have some doubts what this new builder can offer. The exercise of seeing a second builder and getting new plans is a good thing because you will have done it and when/if you go back to your first option you will be happier, you will see what value you are getting with the first builder and you also might discover something in the new plan that you would like to add to the first. A few thousand dollars to achieve these things is not wasted but months and months of time is.

So I would restrict the time you spend on pursuing a second option.
What struck me most is when you describe your first plan and build cost, you used the word perfect. I think maybe hubby wants to make sure.

My 2 cents. Good luck with it all especially baby.

Successful project is a lot more than just price and many people forget that.

Focussing on lowering price and discounts is a sword that cuts both ways. If you have beaten down your contractor in price how do you expect him to go the extra mile for you, he may just be pleased to see you fall in a hole.

I generally don't discount my services and when people ask me for one I ask them what part of my report they would like me to leave out. That usually fixes them but still leaves negative impression with me. In my case I am Building Expert and not Discount Inspections, there are plenty of others less qualified that do discounts.

There is nothing wrong with shopping around and getting the best deal but if you now go shopping after you have invested all this time with your builder and after still having great feel about him, what message will you be sending out not just to him but also to others?

Pay the price and enjoy the ride.

Thanks all for your help. This forum is a great resource. The whole thing is now really stressing me out to be honest. We have gone back to thr builder a second time to ask if it's their best price, I don't think they will make any further changes and we should accept and get started, for P soil mid-high quality custom plans on slope I think $1700 is pretty bang on for the quality we will get. I hope we can come to a resolution, hubby is still keen to pursue so we are going to see the other builder tomorrow our friend who used him did say he was bang in with his estimating and variations were few so that's something I guess... Their budget was greater than ours though I believe and it was a full renovation not new build.

One issue I can see with you wishing the have the plans re-drawn is that the builder owns the copyright. Any draftee/architect would not legally be able to reproduce these for you to take elsewhere (it is not the physical 'drawings' that are owned by the builder, it is the design itself).

If you wanted a check price - you have mentioned re-drawings the plans to take to other builders - as another option - you could find a quantity surveyor. These are cost estimating professionals (normally work in commercial field but some do do residential) and they DO price it down to the last screw. It will cost you for this service, but give you peace of mind if your builders price is within a few percentage.

You mentioned you where concerned that if the builder isn't pricing accurately this will lead to variations. If the builder prices something and is happy to put this as the contract sum in your building contract - this is the price they will charge - they cant apply variations because they have miscalculated the cost. Variations will only apply from changes you want and unforeseen things on site (that they could not have reasonably allowed for). Unless there are 'provisional sums' as these are arbitrary and cant shift around.

I agree with building expert - discounting a fee might mean you save a few dollars, but if it leaves a bad taste they will be less likely to help you out. If you are happy with the price - pay it, if not, go elsewhere. But personally, I don't think negotiating on fixed fee items is worth it - even if you do get a discount.

As a QS and estimator with over 4 decades of experience in (3decades in public tendering) I know how to get it down to a last nail but in practice it never happens.

Pressures of business and life and tight tendering times mean that you have to take shortcuts. There just isn't enough time to take everything to N'th degree. Estimates are done with the use of rates (preferably the ones you worked out yourself from historical jobs) and adjusted for current job or rates from say Cordells.

In any case tenders are won or lost not so much on the last screw but management accurately reading the market and the competition and then applying margin to the net cost.

From reading OP she knows the price is right it's just that reassurance is missing