Browse Forums General Discussion Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 21Oct 23, 2014 11:28 pm It's always a good idea to do your own research before starting anything. Don't try to expect things will fall into their own place in time. Complaining about use of timber in house building is absolutely naive. Also with the thought that having steel frame and no need to worry about termites is definitely the wrong perspective and information one can give to others.. Steel frame house with concrete is still prone to termites!! and it's harder to spot as well if not done correctly. Temples in Japan are built with timber and they are still standing after hundreds of years. If you think steel won't creak and squeak, you are living in a fairy tale world where things are what you want them to be. In real world, steel frames can creak and squeak much worst than timber if not done correctly especially if you are living in places where temperature fluctuation is huge. You can hear your house squeaking in "pain" all the time. Cost of $380k to build a house is usually not luxury after removing the site costs and builder margin etc.. The rule is you won't get better than what you pay for especially if always complaining. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 22Oct 26, 2014 1:59 pm This thread now seems to be doing just what OP did re timber frame houses but hyperbole has shifted to steel frame houses. I have nothing against timber frame houses, so I dont share OP's viewpoint - but by same token, steel frame houses dont have massive problems either - mine has very minimal creaking noises, by no means the excessive problem some posters have portrayed, and the house is no cooler/ hotter than with a timber frame. Nor does it have cracks all over the house after 6 years. Neither do the many other steel frame houses I have been in. Incidentally steel frames were no more expensive in SA than timber frames and company we built with only did steel frames. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 23Oct 27, 2014 10:22 am Helyn - but by same token, steel frame houses dont have massive problems either - mine has very minimal creaking noises, by no means the excessive problem some posters have portrayed, and the house is no cooler/ hotter than with a timber frame. Nor does it have cracks all over the house after 6 years. Neither do the many other steel frame houses I have been in. But thats the thing, people are having mixed results building in timber or steel frames. A non uniform result is worrying. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 24Oct 28, 2014 1:06 am qebtel Helyn - but by same token, steel frame houses dont have massive problems either - mine has very minimal creaking noises, by no means the excessive problem some posters have portrayed, and the house is no cooler/ hotter than with a timber frame. Nor does it have cracks all over the house after 6 years. Neither do the many other steel frame houses I have been in. But thats the thing, people are having mixed results building in timber or steel frames. A non uniform result is worrying. You are right.. It's not what is used for building the house that has problem. It's how the material is used and how the house is built that causes issues. If the house is built in a "cut corner" way, no matter timber or steel, you'll still end up with lots of trouble. If things are done in professional way, either timber or steel framed house can last for decades. The mixed results are really regarding to workmanship and not material.. Somehow people tend to forget. Also you get what you pay for. if you pay cheap, don't really expect everything a five stars service. If you pay premium, don't assume you'll get five stars service either, but at least you can ask for that service and be sure about what you are entitled to. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 25Nov 16, 2014 2:34 pm Bluesuede Calling timber incredibly fragile shows a basic lack of understanding of engineering concepts, Oh yeh? Show me a skyscraper that's build with timber! BAM! END OF DISCUSSION! Seriously - timber IS fragile and temperamental. It is the very reason why there is no 15 stories timber structure that's inhabitable! The tallest timber structure that's habitable is the Tianning Temple at Changzhou - which is only 13 stories tall! Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ There is also the "Forte Living Timber Apartment" that is billed as the "world's tallest timber apartment" and even that one is only 10 stories tall: Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ http://www.forteliving.com.au/ There is another one under construction in Norway which is set to be 14 stories tall called "The Tree" Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ You simply CANNOT build habitable timber skyscraper or else someone would already try hundreds of years ago (or they probably did and they all DIED trying!). Even with modern technologies, 20 stories is probably even a stretch. So forget about 100 stories. And honestly, I wouldn't want to live in those timber apartment even if you give it to me for free! It is just a fire hazard and a sure death trap. Whoever says Timber is better against fire is D-E-L-U-S-I-O-N-A-L! Timber burns and create soots and smoke is a fact. CONCRETE IS NOT COMBUSTIBLE (not to mention it is also termite proof)! "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 26Nov 16, 2014 10:08 pm You were talking about houses. Not sky scrapers. The fact you can build a 13 story structure in timber is testament to the material. your few weeks away from the thread researching is in vain. You're still ignorant and wrong. You don't win arguments by comparing apples and oranges. The topic is about houses. Not skyscrapers. Timber for houses is an excellent material, as is steel and concrete. Both have pros and cons. But while were comparing apples to oranges - did you not see what happened to the twin towers when dbags flew planes into them? Reinforced concrete and steel. Fell down. Like a sack of potatos. BAM. Wouldnt want to live in a sky scraper man, those things fall over the moment somone decides to fly a plane into them. They burned too.... *biggest eye roll in the qorld* Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 28Nov 17, 2014 8:53 am Joker I,Ve known several people with steel frames,and most if not all end up with cracks all over the house, the stiffness of steel frames with no give causing plaster cracks That is garbage. A stiff frame is exactly what you want, plaster cracking means you have foundation problems. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 29Nov 19, 2014 8:49 am Building has always been contingent on the availability and economy of materials available in the locality, just ask Eskimos. The fact that we build with timber frames reflects good availability and economy of timber which is hard to beat. Inherent problems with housing as displayed on this forum do not relate to the poor quality of materials rather poor quality of design and construction. So the "lucky country" does not have shortage of materials but shortage of "grey matter", care, skill and pride in workmanship. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 30Nov 19, 2014 10:02 am Folks I would like to remind you of our terms and conditions around respect to others. Whilst you may not agree with Dr House's posts, name calling and personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum. Such posts will be removed without exception, and may result in you receiving a temporary 'holiday' from the forum. Thank you. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 31Nov 19, 2014 12:31 pm Bluesuede Folks I would like to remind you of our terms and conditions around respect to others. Whilst you may not agree with Dr House's posts, name calling and personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum. Such posts will be removed without exception, and may result in you receiving a temporary 'holiday' from the forum. Thank you. My reference was not in relation to Dr House nor is it a personal attack. I was generally referring to numerous instances of defects found on my inspections and many described on this forum that are a result of lack of common sense and tradies just nor wanting to think or not caring. Dr House's post is welcome (provocative or not) because it promoted discussion and this is what this forum is about. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 32Nov 19, 2014 1:11 pm building-expert Bluesuede Folks I would like to remind you of our terms and conditions around respect to others. Whilst you may not agree with Dr House's posts, name calling and personal attacks are not tolerated on this forum. Such posts will be removed without exception, and may result in you receiving a temporary 'holiday' from the forum. Thank you. My reference was not in relation to Dr House nor is it a personal attack. I was generally referring to numerous instances of defects found on my inspections and many described on this forum that are a result of lack of common sense and tradies just nor wanting to think or not caring. Dr House's post is welcome (provocative or not) because it promoted discussion and this is what this forum is about. My comment was not in relation to you nor your post. It was in reference to another forum member who was reported to me, and whose post I have deleted. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 34Nov 19, 2014 3:42 pm qebtel Dr House CONCRETE IS NOT COMBUSTIBLE (not to mention it is also termite proof)! Didnt seem to help the old World Trade Centres much, did it? The WTC wasnt built with a concrete frame it was Steel? Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 36Jul 01, 2015 12:45 pm After more than 6 months, I am still of the same opinion. Wood will shrink or expand significantly depending on the weather - when it is rainy season some place where it would creak would stop - because the moisture must have saturated and expanded the timber. But when there are weeks of sunny dry days, my house would creak at that same spot when I walk on it. When it is cold day, it will also creak all over, different from sunny warm day. And this is a newly constructed house! The expansion and shrinkage issue is a problem every home owner will face, not to mention timber is fragile, often when I walk on the upper floor of my house I can feel significant deflection or shake beneath my feet - and I have asked my builder to come back to rectify that many times but they explain that's just the problem of timber framed house (and as some forum experts pointed out - engineered wood would have significant deflection compare to natural wood). It just feels filmsy when you walk on it. And I can't put heavy office furniture upstair either as I have tried to put a heavy office desk in my bedroom for my full size desktop computer which is heavy and the whole floor groan and creaks badly as if it is about to collapse under the weight. On top of that, the termite issue which is unavoidable if you have a timber frame house. It doesn't matter what type of termite protection you have, the timber framed house you constructed is basically a pile of wood and an ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT Buffet for the termite! You will live in a constant fear of it as you are forced to shell out $200 every year for the termite inspection. For a country like Australia with severe termite issue which is almost everywhere, I just don't understand why people are building with timber. Australia is also prone to cyclones similar to US where they have to face hurricanes (and even tornados) which often destroys the homes that are built with timber. And every time a massive cyclone or hurricane went through hundreds or even thousands of homes would be destroyed, costing billions of dollar damage. If everyone in these cyclone-prone/hurricane prone region build with steel and cement there won't be such problem. I know this because I used to live in Asia where many massive typhoons would come every year and yet our concrete house never so much as to have a crack. These are issues I have never experience when I was living in an apartment which is concrete construction with steel reinforcing through out. The floor feels SOLID and you can put extremely heavy furnitures (floor to floor bookshelves) on it and not have to worry, not to mention you will never have to worry about termite either or cyclone! I think the government can alleviate many of these problems and damages to our economy by taking steps to bring the cost of concrete constrction down from the current level. Right now concrete construction is simply unaffordable for most australians. By taking policies that would encourage the industry to expand and bringing the cost down, the government and australian home owners would avoid costly reconstruction from cyclone damage, or termite damages and the damage to our economy. "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 37Jul 01, 2015 1:26 pm Dr House After more than 6 months, I am still of the same opinion. Wood will shrink or expand significantly depending on the weather - when it is rainy season some place where it would creak would stop - because the moisture must have saturated and expanded the timber. But when there are weeks of sunny dry days, my house would creak at that same spot when I walk on it. When it is cold day, it will also creak all over, different from sunny warm day. And this is a newly constructed house! The expansion and shrinkage issue is a problem every home owner will face, not to mention timber is fragile, often when I walk on the upper floor of my house I can feel significant deflection or shake beneath my feet - and I have asked my builder to come back to rectify that many times but they explain that's just the problem of timber framed house (and as some forum experts pointed out - engineered wood would have significant deflection compare to natural wood). It just feels filmsy when you walk on it. And I can't put heavy office furniture upstair either as I have tried to put a heavy office desk in my bedroom for my full size desktop computer which is heavy and the whole floor groan and creaks badly as if it is about to collapse under the weight. On top of that, the termite issue which is unavoidable if you have a timber frame house. It doesn't matter what type of termite protection you have, the timber framed house you constructed is basically a pile of wood and an ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT Buffet for the termite! You will live in a constant fear of it as you are forced to shell out $200 every year for the termite inspection. For a country like Australia with severe termite issue which is almost everywhere, I just don't understand why people are building with timber. Australia is also prone to cyclones similar to US where they have to face hurricanes (and even tornados) which often destroys the homes that are built with timber. And every time a massive cyclone or hurricane went through hundreds or even thousands of homes would be destroyed, costing billions of dollar damage. If everyone in these cyclone-prone/hurricane prone region build with steel and cement there won't be such problem. I know this because I used to live in Asia where many massive typhoons would come every year and yet our concrete house never so much as to have a crack. These are issues I have never experience when I was living in an apartment which is concrete construction with steel reinforcing through out. The floor feels SOLID and you can put extremely heavy furnitures (floor to floor bookshelves) on it and not have to worry, not to mention you will never have to worry about termite either or cyclone! I think the government can alleviate amny of these problems and damages to our economy by taking steps to bring the cost of concrete constrction down from the current level. Right now concrete construction is simply unaffordable for most australians. By taking policies that would encourage the industry to expand and bringing the cost down, the government and australian home owners would avoid costly reconstruction from cyclone damage, or termite damages and the damage to our economy. great, in 6 months your opinion is the same the issues you descibe in your timber home bar the termite risk all sound like building and design defects. You can build defects into any home regardless of materials. I think this has been covered somehwere in this thread. could you please explain to me whcih problems exactly and which damages to the economy will be alelviated by bringign down the cost of concrete? If the price of concrete falls, the builders and concretors will simply make a higher margin. Your understanding an economy is like that of building materials. a little economics 101 for you - Bulk cement is a comoddity, much like steel. the price of cement is determined by its availability and demand in the market. The price falls when no one is buying it, and rises when its being purchased for projects or exported in quantaties that leave limited reserves locally. Economies like china and India have an effect on the market price of cement around the world. To the point India is looking at introducing Cement Futures into its comoddity exchanges. So its not like the Govornment can apply a set price to a material that a private producer introduces to the global market. If they did then that producer would have to produce more, to make the same amount of money. Imagine being asked to work an 80 hour week for 40 hours pay. Thats a net effect of what youre talking about. The producer could also not supply australia as it has become uneconomical to do so, driving local price up. Producers wont drop the cost of their own product as who in a capitalist society willingly takes less money for a product so that sonone several times down the line gets a benefit. The producer is running a business, whos price is determined by the market. Same as housing. same as steel. Same as Wheat. Same as gold etc. Theres another group of people whos opinions havent changed despite overwhelming and abundant data - anti-vaxxers. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 38Jul 01, 2015 1:43 pm Dr House These are issues I have never experience when I was living in an apartment which is concrete construction with steel reinforcing through out. The floor feels SOLID and you can put extremely heavy furnitures (floor to floor bookshelves) on it and not have to worry, not to mention you will never have to worry about termite either or cyclone! you know what another benefit of living in an solid apartment made from concrete is? Not having to water your pesky lawn, pick up dog poo from the yard out the back. One of the major benefits to living in a concrete apartments is the fact that you didnt need to buy any pesky land. I mean have you seen rates recently? I think the best thing about owning a concrete shoe box is buying whats is effectively airspace and paying body corporate fees for it. Major win. Just highlighting in a slightly more creative way, that when you compare apples to oranges. the argument can carry on pointlessly forver. all materials have their pros and cons. a good design with good materials and workmanship will perform exceptionally irrespective. You remove one of those elements from the equation, you will end up with slop. Even if you use concrete. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 39Jul 01, 2015 2:27 pm Ponzu Dr House After more than 6 months, I am still of the same opinion. Wood will shrink or expand significantly depending on the weather - when it is rainy season some place where it would creak would stop - because the moisture must have saturated and expanded the timber. But when there are weeks of sunny dry days, my house would creak at that same spot when I walk on it. When it is cold day, it will also creak all over, different from sunny warm day. And this is a newly constructed house! The expansion and shrinkage issue is a problem every home owner will face, not to mention timber is fragile, often when I walk on the upper floor of my house I can feel significant deflection or shake beneath my feet - and I have asked my builder to come back to rectify that many times but they explain that's just the problem of timber framed house (and as some forum experts pointed out - engineered wood would have significant deflection compare to natural wood). It just feels filmsy when you walk on it. And I can't put heavy office furniture upstair either as I have tried to put a heavy office desk in my bedroom for my full size desktop computer which is heavy and the whole floor groan and creaks badly as if it is about to collapse under the weight. On top of that, the termite issue which is unavoidable if you have a timber frame house. It doesn't matter what type of termite protection you have, the timber framed house you constructed is basically a pile of wood and an ALL-YOU-CAN-EAT Buffet for the termite! You will live in a constant fear of it as you are forced to shell out $200 every year for the termite inspection. For a country like Australia with severe termite issue which is almost everywhere, I just don't understand why people are building with timber. Australia is also prone to cyclones similar to US where they have to face hurricanes (and even tornados) which often destroys the homes that are built with timber. And every time a massive cyclone or hurricane went through hundreds or even thousands of homes would be destroyed, costing billions of dollar damage. If everyone in these cyclone-prone/hurricane prone region build with steel and cement there won't be such problem. I know this because I used to live in Asia where many massive typhoons would come every year and yet our concrete house never so much as to have a crack. These are issues I have never experience when I was living in an apartment which is concrete construction with steel reinforcing through out. The floor feels SOLID and you can put extremely heavy furnitures (floor to floor bookshelves) on it and not have to worry, not to mention you will never have to worry about termite either or cyclone! I think the government can alleviate amny of these problems and damages to our economy by taking steps to bring the cost of concrete constrction down from the current level. Right now concrete construction is simply unaffordable for most australians. By taking policies that would encourage the industry to expand and bringing the cost down, the government and australian home owners would avoid costly reconstruction from cyclone damage, or termite damages and the damage to our economy. great, in 6 months your opinion is the same the issues you descibe in your timber home bar the termite risk all sound like building and design defects. You can build defects into any home regardless of materials. I think this has been covered somehwere in this thread. could you please explain to me whcih problems exactly and which damages to the economy will be alelviated by bringign down the cost of concrete? If the price of concrete falls, the builders and concretors will simply make a higher margin. Your understanding an economy is like that of building materials. a little economics 101 for you - Bulk cement is a comoddity, much like steel. the price of cement is determined by its availability and demand in the market. The price falls when no one is buying it, and rises when its being purchased for projects or exported in quantaties that leave limited reserves locally. Economies like china and India have an effect on the market price of cement around the world. To the point India is looking at introducing Cement Futures into its comoddity exchanges. So its not like the Govornment can apply a set price to a material that a private producer introduces to the global market. If they did then that producer would have to produce more, to make the same amount of money. Imagine being asked to work an 80 hour week for 40 hours pay. Thats a net effect of what youre talking about. The producer could also not supply australia as it has become uneconomical to do so, driving local price up. Producers wont drop the cost of their own product as who in a capitalist society willingly takes less money for a product so that sonone several times down the line gets a benefit. The producer is running a business, whos price is determined by the market. Same as housing. same as steel. Same as Wheat. Same as gold etc. Theres another group of people whos opinions havent changed despite overwhelming and abundant data - anti-vaxxers. Like I mentioned previously, timber framed house are prone to damage and destruction when face with cyclones. And cyclone are least of the problem in term of natural disaster - earthquakes are 10 times worse. Luckily in Australia we don't get earthquake (or at least not much). As for policies to alleviate the price and affordability of cement / concrete construction - I am not talking about fixed price by government mandate, I am talking about policies to encourage more companies to get into the cement production industry. When there are more (instead of just handful right now) there will be a glut and the price will fall. Same with more workers and tradies who are trained in concrete construction. Ponzu Dr House These are issues I have never experience when I was living in an apartment which is concrete construction with steel reinforcing through out. The floor feels SOLID and you can put extremely heavy furnitures (floor to floor bookshelves) on it and not have to worry, not to mention you will never have to worry about termite either or cyclone! you know what another benefit of living in an solid apartment made from concrete is? Not having to water your pesky lawn, pick up dog poo from the yard out the back. One of the major benefits to living in a concrete apartments is the fact that you didnt need to buy any pesky land. I mean have you seen rates recently? I think the best thing about owning a concrete shoe box is buying whats is effectively airspace and paying body corporate fees for it. Major win. Just highlighting in a slightly more creative way, that when you compare apples to oranges. the argument can carry on pointlessly forver. all materials have their pros and cons. a good design with good materials and workmanship will perform exceptionally irrespective. You remove one of those elements from the equation, you will end up with slop. Even if you use concrete. I am comparing orange to orange. As I have experience living in concrete houses in asia and timber framed houses in Australia, it seems abundently clear to me the drawbacks of timber. Australia is also moving towards more concrete construction for the past few decades, for example houses used to be built on timber stumps / piers like the Queenslanders, are now giving way to the waffle pod concrete slab foundation. As more apartments going up and more people taking on apartment living than a house and a block, more builder will start offering concrete construction as price for cement will start to fall. "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 40Jul 01, 2015 2:36 pm Ponzu you know what another benefit of living in an solid apartment made from concrete is? Not having to water your pesky lawn, pick up dog poo from the yard out the back. One of the major benefits to living in a concrete apartments is the fact that you didnt need to buy any pesky land. The topic is about the structural efficacy of timber, not the flow on benefits of living in one type of structure or another. Ponzu I mean have you seen rates recently? I think the best thing about owning a concrete shoe box is buying whats is effectively airspace and paying body corporate fees for it. Major win. Major win? Not really. Rates for apartments (which is effectively council rates + body corp fees) is way beyond what it should be, and all I've checked come close to if not exceeding what you'd pay for a house on an individual title. you need to understand the breakdown of warranties. 90 warranty is considered as minor defects rectification period where as the longer ones are more major/structural… 1 5339 Engineering timber is certainly a less fuss option, times cheaper to supply and install and better withstands humidity. 1 15908 Thank you so much everyone. This all makes a lot of sense. I guess when you talk to a builder who butters up everything to look very polished, you get to start believing… 7 17598 |