Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Oct 15, 2014 2:49 pm I just moved in to a brand new double storey "luxury" timber framed house (cost $380,000 to construct and finish - note, not including the land price) and so far this is what I learned: 1. They are easy target for the termite. Most of the expensive termite protection systems only offer limited protection against termite. There is no way to guarantee 100% to stop termite unless you don't build with timber. 2. Also timber is incredibly fragile against cyclone, typhoon, tornadoes, earthquake, bushfire, etc. Even moderately strong wind the house can squeaks and creaks under stress. Sure you can build timber houses rated to withstand cyclonic level wind, but they will still fall over if there is an earthquake simply because timber is no where as strong as steel and concrete. 3. Timber feels incredibly filmsy - walking with your the sole of your feet you can feel the impact viberationas as if walking on non-solid surface; and it often creaks and squeaks when you walk over some joists. Timber joist and bearer are only designed to take limited load (1.5 kN - 153 kg mass / live load minimum) meaning you cannot have heavy furnitures on the upper floor. Also, to keep the weight ("dead load") down on upper floor, they are now using freaking styrofoam for outer walls now! Some builders even use it on the lower floor (and I have photos for proof!). 4. Timber creaks and squeaks under stress, which can be incredibly noisy. Timber moves due to heat, moisture expansions and house movement, which can cause cracks on ceiling and walls, door frames where you cannot close the doors (happens to me only 2 weeks into a brand new house a cold snap at night and door can't be closed but by next afternoon door can be closed smoothly!)! 5. Timber is prone to water damage - especially nowadays when most of the construction material that are timber are made of composite - laminated veneer lumber (hyJoist) or particleboard sheet flooring. Prolonged moisture easily will damage the structure or attract termite for the eventual destruction. 6. Timber framed house are way more complicated construction wise than concrete construction. It is more manually instensive and time consuming than concrete construction. One of the newest development method is the ICF (Insulated concrete form) which is still very new here (its been around for more than 15 years in other countries) which can be extremely fast and effective. In the future, I think I will just build with steel and concrete. What I don't get is why is steel and concrete buildings are so incredibly expensive in Australia? In majority parts of asia most buildings are built with steel and concrete and they are incredibly cheap (1/10 the cost of what these timber framed buildings are) and they can withstand dozens of cyclones and massive typhoons on yearly basis on the level Australia has never heard of, and withstand major earthquakes which is practically unknown in Australia. They also feel very solid under your feet and won't creak or squeak nor 'viberate' when you walk on, and is incredibly quiet when walk on as it can absorbs majority of the impact energy. The funny thing is, Australia is a major concrete and steel producer and exporter, so the price for these should be well below the price from those in asia. The only good thing about timber house is that they are easy for modification - walls and floors are easy to torn down or cut out. But just how many of us will actually in our life time tear down walls and floors for extensions? I will be bet majority of us don't! I honestly can't believe it cost THIS MUCH to build a house that feels incredibly filmsy. For the cost of this I can build FOUR 3-storey steel framed concrete houses in asia. "Occam's Razor. The simplest explanation is almost always somebody screwed up." Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 2Oct 15, 2014 5:08 pm Alarmist much? 1. Termite barriers/protection are one of a number of precautions you need to take to protect against termites. Some areas are extremely low risk of termites, yet require a barrier by law. Seatbelts don’t always save lives either. They are a precautionary measure in a suite of precautionary and safety measures. 2. Where are you living that you need to worry about cyclone, typhoon, tornadoes, earthquake, bushfire, etc. If you are living in an area that is prone to all of these things, you must have know these to be risks the whole time. All of these can also still affect concrete and steel homes. I can guarantee you that a concrete box won’t survive a fierce bushfire, flooding or serious earthquake either and the damage would be arguably more expensive to fix. 3. Timber is strong. Its how it is put togther that can make it flimsy. That is not a fault of timber. I agree that gone are hardwood frames etc, but built well and maintained there shouldn’t be any foreseeable issues from using timber. Styrofoam is being used by some builders. Its thermal rating is better than veneer, although I mirror your disgust in its use. Most builders are still using brick veneer. Wait till they start 3d printing houses. 4. Houses move. A concrete and steel structure would move also. Your doorframes have not been set up with enough allowance for these changes. 5. Timber is not inherently “prone” water damage. If you allow water to penetrate to your wood, thats when damage will occur. Houses are built to prevent prolonged exposure with enough drainage systems in place to (in theory) direct water away from your house and sensitive areas, such as framing (weepholes?) Power to you if you feel you need to build with steel and concrete, but expect to pay twice as much and be ready for an number of other structural issues you haven’t considered. Engineering for one – do you think that a mcmansion built from steel and concrete isn’t going to have a whole load of extra engineering requirements to compensate for the additional loads? Its not like you can replace every piece of wood with steel and concrete. Regarding Asia and how natural disasters treat their buildings - http://www.latimes.com/includes/project ... before.jpg http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/arc ... 29504c.jpg http://www.abc.net.au/news/image/413955 ... 40x627.jpg http://cdn.asiancorrespondent.com/wp-co ... 21x332.jpg http://www.latimes.com/includes/project ... before.jpg carrying on about how cheap it is in asia to build these is really not the point. Ive lived in asia and I can tell why its cheap. Its cheap because there are no standards, there are many operators who run sites barefoot and no PPE. People die building these buildings. The materials are cheap, and sometimes replaced with alternate ,materials to further save money. If I built in asia it would be a hut with cheap local materials, so that if it was damages it could be replaced again ion the cheap with cheap local materials. I thin k you have rose tinted glasses on friend. There is a lot in asia that is cheap. 5 bucks a day for food. Shelter on a beach is nice and cheap in most tourist areas. Hell I’ll be retiring in Asia to make my super stretch. But comparing apples to oranges won’t get you anywhere. Also you won’t build four three story structures in Asia for that cost. Not a chance. You haven’t the faintest idea of how much it would cost you to build something safe in Asia without getting ripped of every part of the way. It sounds to me that you aren’t entirely happy with the product you received for the 380k you spent, which is natural. Although form your other posts it appears you may have done of learning after the fact and not been specific about a lot of your preference or requirements up front, and in writing. Hell I have a lot of stuff im not hapy about in my house, but its not a forever house. So lessons learned and move on to the next one. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 3Oct 15, 2014 8:22 pm Dr House Also timber is incredibly fragile against cyclone, typhoon, tornadoes, earthquake, bushfire, etc. Even moderately strong wind the house can squeaks and creaks under stress. Sure you can build timber houses rated to withstand cyclonic level wind, but they will still fall over if there is an earthquake simply because timber is no where as strong as steel and concrete. You need to be careful that you don't confuse your perception of the house as built by your particular builder (whether this perception has any validity or not) with a failure of a material. After all, some of the oldest buildings still intact and in use today are made from.. yes... timber. Buildings still in use after nearly 1500 years must show something of value in the materials of their construction. Calling timber incredibly fragile shows a basic lack of understanding of engineering concepts, and is, quite frankly, incorrect. Its qualities for seismic resistance alone has always been noted. Rigidity does not always equal good resistance to different types of force. It's the same reason aeroplane wings are designed to flex as rigid wings are prone to structural failure. Concrete and masonry structures historically have been prone to catastrophic collapse in seismic activity and a great deal of effort has been made to develop flexible engineering solutions into their design in earthquake prone areas to try and avoid this. From the article found here http://www.timberengineeringeurope.com/art_be.html Quote: The most earthquake-resistant type of home is a low wooden structure that is anchored to its foundation and sheathed with thick plywood. Some of the traditional architecture of Japan approximates this shock-resistant design, including wooden buildings that are more than a thousand years old. Strangely, both unreinforced masonry and shock-resistant wood houses are used by different cultures in areas of high earthquake risk. Timber Frame is without doubt the safest and most durable form of construction in Earthquake conditions. It is lightweight and can stand the horizontal forces imposed during an Earthquake because it has lateral bracing built in as part of its earthquake resistant design. Timber will flex and return to its original shape, unlike concrete and masonry buildings. Joints are also a major fail zone in traditional buildings as the reinforcing and/or joints will loosen during an Earthquake and cause the building to fail. This does not happen with timber frame and it is rare for a timber frame building to collapse if Engineered and erected correctly. If a little creaking concerns you then stay away from steel frame as this too can creak. Water will destroy anything eventually. Timber isn't inherently PRONE to water damage any more so than concrete is, but both can be damaged. You can argue that concrete is prone to failure as movement introduces cracking, water penetrates the cracks, can leach minerals and react with aggregates, cause reinforcement to rust and swell and crack further, can decalcify it and cause it to become brittle. The moral is that no material is 100% resistant to the elements or to freak occurrences of nature, and the secret is in how the building is constructed to withstand these and best utilise the materials it has been constructed with. Here's the Jokhang temple in Tibet, timber framed and built in 639 AD Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Nanchan temple, timber building, China, 782 AD Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 4Oct 15, 2014 11:05 pm DrHouse, Ponzu and bluesuede have answered you more eloquently that what I can muster, but in brief, what a load of garbage, you have no idea what you are talking about. Ive lived in Timber homes all my life, they are good homes, and have advantages over other materials. Each house style and design has pros and cons. Each to their own. Oh and this is Australia, not Asia, you might like to research wages before you do price comparisons. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 5Oct 15, 2014 11:25 pm Ponzu Alarmist much? 1. Termite barriers/protection are one of a number of precautions you need to take to protect against termites. Some areas are extremely low risk of termites, yet require a barrier by law. Seatbelts don’t always save lives either. They are a precautionary measure in a suite of precautionary and safety measures. If you don't wear your seatbelt properly they can be next to useless and can cause you more harm than good. Like seatbelts if your termite barriers aren't done properly, then they are useless and won't save your house from termite attack. In fact you are always responsible to ensure that termite barriers are not being crossed, even in a steel frame house, as the termites will destroy your skirting boards and other timbers in the house. Our old home was a steel frame, but this new one is timber framed, however we've used treated timber and also have termimesh done to it. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 6Oct 16, 2014 11:00 am yes, seat belts are next to useless when not worn properly, just as termite barriers are useless when not installed properly. The original point i was making was that even if they are installed properly, they aren’t a guarantee and a catch all. The point I was making to the OP about complaining that timber is a "target" and that no barrier is a 100% safe solution was that you cant rely on that alone. Maintaining a house requires a lot of work and he shouldn’t be relying on the barrier as a 100% effective solution for termites regardless of whether the house is built from timber or not. Just as one does not rely on a seat belt itself as a safety measure. When driving a car your safety measures include – Being a competent driver (getting your license requires education on rules, safety, passing a test etc) Observing speed limits, signs, traffic lights and other related road rules. Being spatially aware of other drivers and your environment. All of these come into play and are arguably more important than relying on your seat belt to do the job of keeping you safe. However as an additional precaution you most likely have airbags, a car that has been engineered and built to a certain standards etc....and a seat belt The same goes for keeping your home safe from termites. Educating yourself on home maintenance and your area's termite risk. Observing your home for tell tale signs regularly or working to prevent access by limiting sources of entry, or avoiding providing conditions that are favorable for termites. After this you can hopefully take comfort that you ALSO have a termite barrier as a precautionary measure. But you don’t just go “oh I have a termite barrier, im safe” nor can you go “I have a timber frame house and termite barriers are useless because they aren’t 100% effective”. Life requires you to self asses and manage your risk appetites to your lifestyle. There is no easy simple fix all solution that you can set and forget for ANYTHING. The sooner people like the OP realise this, the sooner they can get on with life sans the jaded attitude. “Oh my luxury house creaks, oh my door sticks in my luxury house, oh my timber framed luxury house is useless….in ASIA I can get yadda yadda yadda”. It really is en excellent example of the entitlement issues that plague this country. We’ve been living in the first world so long that we forget that we have 380k to spend on a luxury home, that we have ways to protect our assets and that we can fill these homes with nice things… This isn’t an unfortunate individual that has had their home ruined by less than acceptable building practices (hopefully wont), theyre complaining about not getting what they thought they were or now unhappy with the materials they chose to build with. It is the absolute epitome of a first world problem complex. OP – if your home is not up to scratch – make sure you do your research and present your facts with evidence and regulatory requirements to the builder. Explain eloquently what you expect to be done about it and take it from there. That is your course of action. Telling people to never use timber because of a number of misunderstood aspects of the material is irresponsible and why you’ve gotten such a strong response. I can guarantee if you know your stuff, it will get sorted. Otherwise take it as a life lesson and develop an Idea of what you will do next time you build. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 7Oct 16, 2014 12:43 pm Quote: This isn’t an unfortunate individual that has had their home ruined by less than acceptable building practices (hopefully wont), theyre complaining about not getting what they thought they were or now unhappy with the materials they chose to build with. It is the absolute epitome of a first world problem complex Well said! Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 8Oct 16, 2014 4:24 pm Dr House In the future, I think I will just build with steel and concrete. Yes, reinforced concrete is the best building material in the world and if you build the right design on the right block it will be cheaper Dr House What I don't get is why is steel and concrete buildings are so incredibly expensive in Australia? In majority parts of asia most buildings are built with steel and concrete and they are incredibly cheap (1/10 the cost of what these timber framed buildings are) and they can withstand dozens of cyclones and massive typhoons on yearly basis on the level Australia has never heard of, and withstand major earthquakes which is practically unknown in Australia. They also feel very solid under your feet and won't creak or squeak nor 'viberate' when you walk on, and is incredibly quiet when walk on as it can absorbs majority of the impact energy. It is the labour cost content..the cost of concrete is fairly constant worldwide Dr House .......The only good thing about timber house is that they are easy for modification - walls and floors are easy to torn down or cut out. But just how many of us will actually in our life time tear down walls and floors for extensions? I will be bet majority of us don't! Actually precast concrete panels can be altered and reconstructed fairly simply although the design must be accommodating Ive designed and engineered 3 story town houses that have cost $300K Dr House I honestly can't believe it cost THIS MUCH to build a house that feels incredibly filmsy. For the cost of this I can build FOUR 3-storey steel framed concrete houses in asia. Years ago I did some work on a mansion that was built in Indonesia From memory I think it cost $A500K the same house built in perth would have cost $5M and you wouldnt have had 30 people standing around on the job site either... Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 9Oct 16, 2014 6:39 pm Ponzu This isn’t an unfortunate individual that has had their home ruined by less than acceptable building practices (hopefully wont), theyre complaining about not getting what they thought they were or now unhappy with the materials they chose to build with. It is the absolute epitome of a first world problem complex. Where's the LIKE button ? Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 10Oct 16, 2014 7:02 pm qebtel DrHouse, Ponzu and bluesuede have answered you more eloquently that what I can muster, but in brief, what a load of garbage, you have no idea what you are talking about. Ive lived in Timber homes all my life, they are good homes, and have advantages over other materials. Each house style and design has pros and cons. Each to their own. Oh and this is Australia, not Asia, you might like to research wages before you do price comparisons. +1 Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 11Oct 17, 2014 10:49 am If I had unlimited funds which I dont have incidentally, or if I took the labour content out of the build and provided that myself which I can, I would choose concrete over and above all the other materials. I just got back from rome and those concrete buildings & monuments are still standing a testiment to durability and material engineering. Think of it as priceless assets that are to be passed down the generations Designer,Engineer (Civil,Const & Envir),Builder,Concrete & Masonry Contract.Struct Repairs Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 12Oct 17, 2014 12:00 pm coincidentally a lot of those structures also don't have reinforcing. The pantheon dome being a prime example. So material is definitely a plus, but sad that our practices 2000 years later, with all the advances, still cant get it right a lot of the time Don't get me wrong, I agree that a well designed concrete/steel home would be an asset, just as a properly built timber framed home can be. I just don't think the OP had considered that his overall view was an alarmist, misunderstood and poorly placed panic attack off the back of not being ultimately happy with the builders output. I myself work in audit and in reality any industry or process output is only as good as your design and controls. poor design poor output. Poor controls poor output. poor design and poor controls, disaster. what we tend to see in the building industry is a combination of the above. Some of it is external poor regulation, most of it is poor self regulation. In a perfect world houses would stand the test of time irrespective of material used, as evidenced by some of the timber temples above, of which some are only a couple of centuries older than the concrete roman structures. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 13Oct 19, 2014 12:35 pm My last house was steel frame and I the temp rental I am jn now why we build is also steel frame, I'll never own another one again, IMO they are horrible and have more noise issues than timber frame. They ping and pop and expand and contract In The heat more than timber does, they are also cold in winter. Now the one we owned was built in 2001 so I though maybe they had made some progress since then but our rental is less than 3 years old and has all the same issues. I am now building Timber frame as our first house we owned was timber and it was much better. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 14Oct 19, 2014 3:18 pm hitman My last house was steel frame and I the temp rental I am jn now why we build is also steel frame, I'll never own another one again, IMO they are horrible and have more noise issues than timber frame. They ping and pop and expand and contract In The heat more than timber does, they are also cold in winter. Now the one we owned was built in 2001 so I though maybe they had made some progress since then but our rental is less than 3 years old and has all the same issues. I am now building Timber frame as our first house we owned was timber and it was much better. Steel frame houses never appealed to me. I think steel is a wonderful material to be used in its own right and not just as poor imitation of carpentry in steel. There are benefits and drawbacks of any building material that's why we have professional building designer to know which to use and when. Yes reinforced concrete is a wonderful building material but no more wonderful than timer, or steel or glass or stone or brick etc etc. It's the design creativity that should bring out the best and execution should match intent. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 15Oct 20, 2014 10:57 am hitman My last house was steel frame ..., IMO they are horrible and have more noise issues than timber frame. They ping and pop and expand and contract In The heat more than timber does Where did the noise come from? Roof sheeting (mostly I guess) , roof trusses (perhaps I guess), framing (doubt it)? I have this theory that to stop metal roof cladding to stop making expansion noise, the screw needs to go through an oval hole in the sheet as opposed to a circular self drilled hole, so that it is not locked in place by the screw, and it can move a little. Although I've never seen any doco to uphold this theory. I live under a screwed down corrugated iron roof and am well acquainted with expansion noise when the sun comes out. Theres certainly a lot of steel frames going up these days. Surely this noise issue isnt widespread, else there would be a general uproar and they would be out of favour? Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 16Oct 20, 2014 11:36 am "Issue" is subjective. Steel frames mKe noise like any metal as it expands and contracts. Some peopple find it anoying others dont. Creator of superduperonium, expert at expert things, nobel laureate, can hold my breath for 10 minutes. Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 17Oct 21, 2014 10:10 am I was tiled roof. The whole house pinged and popped and its a pain in the arse to hang anything as you can't just drive a nail in, you have to screw everything, also steel is not a great insulator so no matter what you do with batts there are always gaps for cold air. Mice also love the ease of walking through the c channels. I'll never do it again. JG king are main builders, the one I owned was a JGK and the rental I'm in now is a JGK and both have the same noise. Saying just because more are being built means by a widespread issue is ridiculous, termites are a widespread issue and plenty of timber houses get built Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 18Oct 21, 2014 10:26 am I don't like the idea of elongated holes in the roofing, as that to me could add another water ingress point, even though it is on the peak of the sheeting where it shouldn't be a problem. In both our old home and this rental we're in, you do get the pings and noises associated with steel framing, but it never really bothers me, probably because I understand why it does that, and that it isn't a real issue. Like hitman says, the fitting on items to the wall is a damn nuisance, as it all has to be screwed in to place, you just can't nail something up on to the wall as you can with timber frames. Guess what, my new home is timber framed. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: DON'T BUILD TIMBER HOUSES! PERIOD! 20Oct 22, 2014 10:52 pm Don't build timber Houses? Don't go to live in New Zealand then. Double brick is unheard of, brick is a choice, but timber is the most common build and the houses are lovely. Especially the ones made out of native Kauri which is an extremely hard timber (and no, native native forest milling is long gone.. ).Yes we don't have termites, but we do have other issues (rainfall, damp, earthquakes) and timber does people proud. you need to understand the breakdown of warranties. 90 warranty is considered as minor defects rectification period where as the longer ones are more major/structural… 1 3821 Engineering timber is certainly a less fuss option, times cheaper to supply and install and better withstands humidity. 1 10697 Thank you so much everyone. This all makes a lot of sense. I guess when you talk to a builder who butters up everything to look very polished, you get to start believing… 8 2124 |