Browse Forums General Discussion Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 41Apr 18, 2014 3:41 pm It brings to mind the brick wall collapse that killed people in Melbourne last year (or the year before?) - advertising hoardings attached to a brick wall not designed to support forces caused by wind on the hoardings, resulting in a collapse. Consider yourself lucky it didn't collapse earlier - or later when you had it as a "feature" wall on a courtyard and you were sitting near it. Using your wall as a retaining wall was illegal and dangerous. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 42Apr 18, 2014 8:03 pm Have you actually seen anything from their insurance company saying that they won't cover it because it is your fault. Perhaps your neighbour has been told that the insurance company is refusing the claim, because of the negligence of your neighbour by not putting in a retaining wall. This does not automatically mean that you are responsible for the damage. The neighbours still are... but they will need to cough up themselves rather than claiming from the insurance. Sadly, that will definitely mean that you need to get a court order, as they are not willing to do the right thing and fix up the mess they have created by not following building codes and putting in a needed retaining wall. They clearly knew it was needed, otherwise they wouldn't have got initial costings. So they chose to break the regulations, and are now trying to make you pay for their non-compliance. I bet they are fully aware that the insurance company hold them responsible, and are trying to bluff you into taking the blame so they can avoid paying up! My Building Thread:https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66153 Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 43Apr 18, 2014 8:39 pm Bluesuade - we hadn't actually had it as a feature wall as yet - it was our carport wall. But you are right, it makes me shiver, thinking about us and the kids driving in and out daily, not to mention moving the cars out to let the kids play tennis and other games in the carport. It could have been much, much worse! We haven't seen anything in writing yet. I suppose we will leave that to our lawyers. It does seem strange that their insurance company would say "your neighbours must fix everything and retain your garden and then we will replace the colourbond fence.". Surely the insurance would either accept their claim or not? And then chase us for the money if we are supposedly at fault. At this stage I think our best case scenario is that we try to get all the loose soil off their side onto ours and clean it up. Maybe we can remove that free hanging colourbond fence, if we are offering to go halves in replacing it? Although they have said the insurance company will cover that cost. (And that cost only). If the erosion from their side is stopped, that should mean it is safe to start to build on our block. Then the whole replacement of the dividing wall can be dealt with down the track. The Easter break is going to kill me! another 3 days of nothing! (Yes, I'm very impatient! I don't deal well with unknowns). Thanks for all the supportive replies though. THe more I look at it and think about it, an read the comments here, the more confident I get that we just can't be held responsible for this. Doesn't help with the time frame, but it does help my state of mind. I could probably do with a valium or two! I don't think I've ever felt this stressed before, and the build hasn't even started yet! My Building Thread https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66087 Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 44Apr 29, 2014 6:39 pm they have not retained their side and are lucky that the wall didn't collapse while your house was still built as then it would have been his fault so just because there is no longer a house doesn't mean your in the wronge, as if the house was still there it would be his fault. with council permission to remove the house his unfouned garden washed down Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 46Apr 30, 2014 6:24 am Actually, on reviewing the photo and what you said in your OP I have a couple of questions "We have recently demolished our home to build a new one. Demolition happened 3 months ago. We left one wall of our carport, as a "feature" around the courtyard in our new home. (weird, I know, but we had a plan)." Demolition requires a building permit, did you have one? If so it should have specified that the remaining brick wall should be propped up and braced. As a builder I would have done it. Partially demolished structures can be dangerous and in this case it seems you have a tall unsupported wall. Whoever did your design should have specified a propping system. Who did your design? Was there engineering? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 47Apr 30, 2014 9:52 am building-expert Demolition requires a building permit, did you have one? If so it should have specified that the remaining brick wall should be propped up and braced. .....Whoever did your design should have specified a propping system. Who did your design? Was there engineering? News to me that you need a design for a demolition? In SE Qld, the demo permit is just a formality, its pretty well rubber stamped, with the usual provisos for the demolisher to comply with EPA/Safety/Building laws, etc. I suspect the carport was assumed to be removed in total at time of application? Nevertheless, as BE says, the demolisher did not exercise proper discretion by allowing the single wall to remain as is unpropped. Very bad mistake. Apart from that, as a few others have said, it looks open and shut to me. I think the BCA states that retaining walls one metre or higher require engineering (ie a permit), and your neighbour obviously hasnt got one, as it would have required substantial engineering expense which would have avoided the current situation. From what you have told us, ultimately your neighbour is fully at fault, and not very bright. Since you say 30K can send you bankrupt I would have advised not to engage a solicitor, as they will send you bankrupt. You should pursue the permit for the raised soil (which will not exist), and council would then be forced to issue a direction for that work to be made compliant. You dont need laywer for that, you just complain to council. That process can take 2 - 4 months. Since you are building 2 metres away, that soil level must come down, no way would you want the soil level any higher considering your house is only 2 metres away. This is the outcome you want. Since your are building so close, I believe you have grounds to object to the raising of the soil level. Finally as others have said, dont pay much attention to your adversary's insurance company or lawyers. Their first ploy is always to deny, and put the blame back onto you. This is how they "protect" their client's interest, through intimidation. Dont fall for it. Understand your position, and assert it. As Deluxes said, you will need to prove the original height of the soil. If you have no photos, affadavits from the neighbours should do it. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 48Apr 30, 2014 11:17 am THanks for the continued interest. Building expert - we had both a demolition permit and a building permit. The wall was supported by 3 pillars on our side, and was secure. Or so we thought - not realising the pressure it was under from the other side. The pillars were enough to support a free-standing single brick wall. The central pillar fell first, then the entire thing. We have an independent building engineers report which states that the weight against the wall was such that it could have collapsed at any time since the garden was raised, and that the demolition of our house has had no impact on this. He states that it could have come down whilst the house was still standing, and further, that lives were at risk due to the neighbours negligence. We have provided this to the neighbour, with the same offer - we will pay to clear our block and make good on our side. He needs to fix his garden in a way that is safe. Whether he retains it properly this time, or digs it back to the original level is up to him. We are also happy to go halves with a replacement colourbond boundary fence if required - depending on what he chooses for fencing/retaining etc. Neighbour contacted us to ask for our email address, so he could send us a report he has with recommendations and options to fix it, and said he wanted to get together over the weekend to discuss the options. Then we get an email / letter from his lawyer, stating that it is still their opinion that it was the demolition that caused the wall to fall and that he has several options to fix it, if we pay half his costs. So it seems he didn't want to meet us on the weekend after all. We still have not received their report or any further information or evidence that disputes our engineer report. If they have any reports saying it is our fault, they are not sharing.... just as their insurance company does not seem to be coming after us as they initially implied. We are going ahead with clearing the mess off the block and making it as safe as we can from our side. There is nothing else to fall except sand subsidence, which after some rain on the weekend, seems to have almost stopped. And their letter is with our lawyer, drafting a response...... I hate that it is ending up here. It feels so unnecessary. I don't think we are being unreasonable, but they obviously disagree. My Building Thread https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66087 Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 49Apr 30, 2014 11:34 am Darcy27 Neighbour contacted us to ask for our email address, so he could send us a report he has with recommendations and options to fix it, and said he wanted to get together over the weekend to discuss the options. Then we get an email / letter from his lawyer, stating that it is still their opinion that it was the demolition that caused the wall to fall and that he has several options to fix it, if we pay half his costs. So it seems he didn't want to meet us on the weekend after all. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that the solicitor was acting as previously instructed, and wasn't aware of the weekend meeting proposed. Did you have that meeting on the weekend or was that due to happen next weekend ? Quote: We are going ahead with clearing the mess off the block and making it as safe as we can from our side. There is nothing else to fall except sand subsidence, which after some rain on the weekend, seems to have almost stopped. Even though it would've created more clean up on your block, it might have added more strength to your side of the argument, that he was illegally using your wall to retain his garden, and it was only your wall that was keeping his garden on his side of the fence. Either way, I reckon you can almost guarantee his garden is going to end up sliding in to your yard in the not too distant future. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 50Apr 30, 2014 11:47 am Quote: I'd give them the benefit of the doubt that the solicitor was acting as previously instructed, and wasn't aware of the weekend meeting proposed. Did you have that meeting on the weekend or was that due to happen next weekend ? He asked for the email on Wednesday or Thursday. Meeting was meant to be last weekend - Saturday or Sunday. We said we were available, and they were going to contact us. Then the letter arrived on Saturday afternoon, dated that day. My husband spoke to him yesterday to let them know we were clearing up the block this week. He mentioned that we didn't have the report as yet, and neighbour promised to send it yesterday. Still have not received it. There is a fairly substantial pile of dirt and sand on our block as it is (about 4-5ft high piled against the wall) and we have a lot of photos of it. Short of building a retaining wall on their side, there is not much more we can do to stop their land subsiding. From what council has said, it is now their responsibility to stop it sliding, regardless of the new retaining, or they can dig it back to the level of the current retaining wall if they want. My Building Thread https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66087 Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 51Apr 30, 2014 11:58 am <nasty mode on> I'd hose the exposed side of his raised garden, so that it all falls in to your property, then make him pay for everything involved in the clean up on your side. It's going to eventually all fall away as there is now nothing retaining it anymore. Clearly he's not going to do the right thing by you, so don't offer to clear up the existing mess caused by his use of your shed wall as a retaining wall, and make him/his insurance pay for it. </nasty mode off> Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 52Apr 30, 2014 12:20 pm Hi Darcy27, Your neighbour has a very good neighbour. 10/10. You, on the other hand, deserve better. I admire your patience. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 53Apr 30, 2014 7:32 pm Hi Darcy I am not trying to be difficult just setting out issues from my experience. Buildings under construction may be unstable and require temporary bracing. Similarly buildings that are demolished may require the same particularly if part of the building remains. Demolition should have undergone careful assessment to determine if free standing wall would be safe or if it requires bracing to make it so. My question is whether this had been done. Demolition permit without proper stability assessment should not have been issued. I agree that your neighbour was wrong to use your garage wall for retaining his soil but the wall only collapsed after your demolition. So even if you are 5% wrong this could be made out that you are 95% wrong. I am only saying this because I see it all the time in the disputes I come across. Your best bet is to settle this as quickly as you can or you could indeed be looking at a very expensive dispute. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 54Apr 30, 2014 10:50 pm I really feel for you and I feel you are being too generous. Try to do as much legally as you can afford. I guess if you sold you'd have agents fees and stamp duty on a new place so I would maybe consider it cheaper to fight it. Court is hideously expensive though. Tribunals can be fairly cheap especially if he takes you. It all sounds so worrying. He could have got someone killed. As a previous poster suggested I would go straight to council about his permit that he didnt get. Hope it works out. Can't relieve how cheeky people are. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 55Apr 30, 2014 11:07 pm Quote: I agree that your neighbour was wrong to use your garage wall for retaining his soil but the wall only collapsed after your demolition. I know. This is the frustrating thing. Although we do have an engineering report that says it could have collapsed at any time, regardless of our demolition. (Which is terrifying, and makes me thankful that it has collapsed now, and not when I was in the carport with the kids, or their kids were playing up there). So until I see an independent professional report from someone else saying otherwise, that is what I'm holding on to. (I still haven't recieved the report that they say they have, which they were going to give us last week, and promised again yesterday). AS far as I am aware, the demolition company did the right thing. There was three pillars supporting the wall, which should have been enough..... if it didn't have tonnes of soil against it. When the demolition contractor spoke to the neighbour, he was told that there was retaining in there. As I've said, we don't want any money or anything else from them, other than they rectify their side. But we won't pay half. We just want to build our house and move on, and not be mortal enemies with the neighbours for the next 10-20 years. joannek - I really hope this doesn't end up in court. That would be stupid, and would cost a fortune. We won't roll over too easily though. We just want what's fair, really. And it doesn't seem fair to have to spend $15000 retaining their garden, when we were not involved in the building of it in the first place. I spoke to council about it initially- they are less than useless. However I will be insisting that he goes to council for permits when it gets fixed, if he wants to put the garden back to the higher level and retain it properly. If he just wants to level it to the original level, it wont be so bad. That would obviously be our preference - it seems safer at this late stage. All in all, I just need to sleep again. Three weeks of sleepless nights is taking it's toll. My Building Thread https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=66087 Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 56Apr 30, 2014 11:34 pm All the best. Yes being on reasonable terms with your neighbour is priceless too I guess. I'm sure it will all work out. Mediation could be a nice cheap civilised option with lawyers present. It's worth pressing on with the council too. One useless employee can give you nothing but maybe a councillor or the Mayor could look at it. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 57May 01, 2014 1:57 pm Darcy27 I spoke to council about it initially- they are less than useless. However I will be insisting that he goes to council for permits when it gets fixed, All in all, I just need to sleep again. Three weeks of sleepless nights is taking it's toll. Im not sure you understood what I told you in my post of 30 Apr. Im 90% sure the raising of soil beyond one metre is illegal without a permit and an engineered wall to retain it. So forgetting about your brick wall for the moment, the current situation is illegal without a permit. You have him by the ba11s. As for council, if you go in there asking for help you wont get much. They need to be told what to do. So
Really, thats all there is to it. Just do it. IT seems ot me you are making mountains out of molehills and causign yourself uneccessary grief. Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 58May 01, 2014 4:45 pm building-expert Demolition should have undergone careful assessment to determine if free standing wall would be safe or if it requires bracing to make it so. My question is whether this had been done. Demolition permit without proper stability assessment should not have been issued. My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... Re: Who is responsible for this? Pictures work now! 59May 01, 2014 4:54 pm "And it doesn't seem fair to have to spend $15000 retaining their garden, when we were not involved in the building of it in the first place." - and he didn't seek council permission, let alone enginerring, of this "retaining" wall. What did council have to say about him not having permission for the "retaining" wall? If he had any decency and after seeing what had he done, he should have cleared his built-up garden promptly to the original ground level as soon as this happened - as a bare minimum. Why is it so important that he has a tall garden on that boundary line?? Is there any ovbious or otherwise reasonable explanation for that? My signature is distracting people from my wise posts ... https://form.jotform.com/240284569218058 Please spare a moment to fill out this survey form for a project. You stand a chance to win a digital gift voucher. Legitimate… 0 2821 |