Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Apr 07, 2014 6:31 pm Hi, I'm a first time poster on this forum. I own a 1bdr apartment in hawthorn east, and am looking to increase my equity in the apartment as to borrow against for an investment property. Basically the apartment has a reasonably large bedroom (almost oversized for the apartment) + BIR, situated adjacent to a reasonably sized separate study. I've noticed that 2bdr apartments in the area sell for a lot more than 1bdr (+ >$100k), some of which are smaller/same size as our apartment (~70sqm). I'm hoping I can steal some space from the master bedroom (-500mm), to create a larger study (+500mm) which I can then turn into a second bedroom - but its still going to be quite small, so I'm looking for advice whether it would be worthwhile. Here is the current floorplan. (bedroom dimensions do not include robe) Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Here is proposed floorplan after moving wall and BIR. Robe is about 500mm deep. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ Some cons are: - The new bedroom will still be very small (2.6 x 2.9m). - The room will not have any natural light/ ventilation. (Is this legal? lol) (I'm thinking of using a slatted window above the added bedroom door to atleast allow some natural light/ventilation). - Noise from the hallway is loud in the study - May need to move the door in bedroom 1 as the door is longer than in the floorplan and will prob interfere with the new BIR - unless I only bring the wall out ~450mm. If I am to move the door, is it worth pushing out more? Say 600-700mm to make 2 small rooms? Other info: - Window in master bedroom is opaque just to let natural light in. - Apartment internal walls are steel framed and attached to a U channel bolted along the concrete above and below. - No electrical points along the wall to be moved - The C cupboard has a large hot water system in it so cant be incorporated into the room. Mostly though, I think advertising the apartment as a 2bdr rather than 1bdr + study would rather increase the value. Owner buyers might be more aware of size issue etc - but the apartment is also very close to a Uni, so rental demand is strong for investors and the bedroom is probably bigger than most uni apartments - however marketing towards uni students would decrease the value. As is its basically a luxury 1bdr for the area (most 1bdr are ~50sqm). Perhaps new idea is to market as a 1.5bdr? Master + single bedroom? Other option could be to leave study size as is, but include a foldaway wall bed? Dont think this will increase the value as much - and they are costly. Again, I'm not actually trying to sell the property atm, just trying to reevaluate the property to borrow against the equity. Thoughts? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated! Cheers! Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 2Apr 07, 2014 6:41 pm I wouldn't steal from the main bedroom. It would make it tiny! The study how it is would fit a single bed in it. Make it a kids room. Although I think having no window would make it illegal?? Can it have a sky light or is there another apartment above you? Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 3Apr 07, 2014 6:57 pm Hi Ari, Thanks for your reply! Ari I wouldn't steal from the main bedroom. It would make it tiny! I wouldn't say it would be 'tiny' - atleast not for apartment standards anyway. The robe is actually larger than depicted in the floor plan so no other external dresser is required, leaving the room quite bare. Currently our queen sized bed and side tables seem quite small in the room - there is heaps of room at the foot of the bed - I even considered halving the BIR for the proposed bedroom2 (opening other side), and having another BIR or atleast dresser at the foot of the bed (wall of hall) - but building another BIR would be costly. Ari The study how it is would fit a single bed in it. Make it a kids room. Although I think having no window would make it illegal?? Can it have a sky light or is there another apartment above you? No skylight option unfortunately, we are not top level. I feel with just adding a door the room will make any occupant claustrophobic - without the door (or a bed currently) it seems quite spacious, but as-is would not qualify as a bedroom. It definitely would fit a single bed though. But my aim here is to value add without having to spend too much money - do you feel simply adding a door will add value to the apartment? Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 4Apr 07, 2014 7:20 pm I don't think it will be legal so it's probably all a moot point but is there a garage you could relocate the laundry to? Build thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65085 Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 5Apr 07, 2014 7:59 pm EmyN is there a garage you could relocate the laundry to? Unfortunately no - just 1 carspace on title in the underground parking. Thanks for the idea though. There is however a laundromat 50m from the building - but as we are planning on staying on in the apartment, we're not keen on the idea of abolishing our personal laundry. EmyN I don't think it will be legal I was hoping a slatted window area of ~1050mm x 450mm above the new door would be sufficient. Though natural light would obviously have to travel down the hall to the room though. I think I found the legislation here; http://www.abcb.gov.au/en/ncc-products/ncc-archives/~/media/Files/BCA%20Archives/BCA96_Vol2A13.ashx Which states: 3.8.4.2 Natural lighting Natural lighting must be provided in a Class 1 building to all habitable rooms, in accordance with the following: (a) Natural lighting must be provided by windows that- (i) have an aggregate light transmitting area measured exclusive of framing members, glazing bars or other obstructions of not less than 10% of the floor area of the room; and (ii) are open to the sky or face a court or other space open to the sky or an open verandah, carport or the like. (b) A window required to provide natural light that faces a boundary of an adjoining allotment must not be less than a horizontal distance of 900 mm from that boundary. (c) Natural lighting to a room in a Class 1 building may come through a glazed panel or opening from an adjoining room (including an enclosed verandah) if- (i) the glazed panel or opening has an area of not less than 10 % of the floor area of the room to which it provides light; and (ii) the adjoining room has windows with an aggregate light transmitting area of not less than 10 % of the combined floor areas of both rooms; and (iii) the areas specified in (i)and (ii)may be reduced as appropriate if direct natural light is provided from another source. So it seems its going to be too hard to comply to these rules. Even without changing the size of the study, the slats above the door would only be 7.5% of the floor area, so would also need a window down the side(s) of the new door. Even then, it might be hard to get around the clause that it must face a space open to the sky (hall kinda is - can see trees from there so could be debated), but it does not 'face' the open sky itself. Atleast if the slats aren't glazed the main window does not need to be 10% of the area of the lounge, bedroom 1 AND new bedroom 2 - which it would not be. So it looks like expanding the room is a no-go unless I can get more natural light in - but potentially could get a door in with the current size... I guess it could definitely only be a 1.5bdr then, but adding a door wouldn't cost much. Question is, would it be worth it? Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 6Apr 07, 2014 8:34 pm Would adding a door be worth it? I don't know, wouldn't cost much would it? I don't know if it would be counted even as a "0.5" .... I thought rooms had to have robes in them to be considered official bedrooms. I actually think the layout is pretty optimal the way it is. Having the open study at the door would lend a more roomy feeling I imagine. Good luck with whatever you decide to do! Build thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65085 Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 7Apr 08, 2014 8:10 am EmyN Would adding a door be worth it? I don't know, wouldn't cost much would it? I don't know if it would be counted even as a "0.5" .... Anyone care to chime in here? EmyN I thought rooms had to have robes in them to be considered official bedrooms. I can't find any legislation to suggest this - I hope it is not the case. EmyN I actually think the layout is pretty optimal the way it is. Having the open study at the door would lend a more roomy feeling I imagine. Indeed, I love the layout as is and we would continue to use the room just as a study... but if we could increase the value of the property, it would certainly make our lives easier with another property we are about to buy. EmyN Good luck with whatever you decide to do! Cheers! Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 9Apr 08, 2014 8:27 am Thanks for your reply Ari Ari I think you're stuck because you can't add the window. I can't add an external window, but I can add an internal window which I think could comply to building regs with some persuasion. Infact, I worked out I have enough potential window space around the door to expand the room to 2.9m as per the original suggestion. Ari Adding a door isn't going to trick the bank into thinking its a two bedroom so the valuation won't increase. Indeed, it would need to meet building regs to qualify as a bedroom. If I were selling the place, I would just put a bed in the study (easily fits) to show the potential but not officially market it as a 2nd bedroom - but thats not going to do squat for the banks, esp as they mostly dont even come in the apartment to do the valuation. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 10Apr 08, 2014 11:01 am Stive I can't add an external window, but I can add an internal window which I think could comply to building regs with some persuasion. No it won't. If you put in a glass door your hallway still does not have any direct windows either. Windows at the far end of the apartment will not qualify. Unfortunately the only way to qualify that study as a habitable room is with an external window which you won't be able to do. I'm surprised to be honest that it even gets labelled a 'study' and not a 'store room' given the complete lack of direct light or ventilation. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 11Apr 08, 2014 11:36 am Hey Bluesuede, thanks for your input. Bluesuede No it won't. If you put in a glass door your hallway still does not have any direct windows either. Windows at the far end of the apartment will not qualify. Unfortunately the only way to qualify that study as a habitable room is with an external window which you won't be able to do. I am concerned this may be the case - but I'm not certain. I think legally the hall would only classify as another room if it was separated by a door. I'm basing this on when my mum had some carpet water damage in her place from a storm at one end of the house, and the insurance company had to replace the carpet all the way down the hall into the lounge room and also dining room because there were no doors separating them. I'm sure if it were legally considered another room, the insurance company would have just replaced the hall carpet and saved the extra couple of thousand dollars. Bluesuede I'm surprised to be honest that it even gets labelled a 'study' and not a 'store room' given the complete lack of direct light or ventilation. If I am correct in what I said before, legally the study is part of the same lounge/hall room as there is no door - therefore it gets away with not having any natural light/ventilation of its own. Can't seem to find any evidence to support an argument either way though... I've also started looking as sun tubes/pipes to bring some natural light in from the balcony - not to meet the natural light standard, but just so it wouldn't feel so gloomy if we were to proceed. Not sure how well they work horizontally with no direct sunlight though, and if it would be worth the cash splash. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 12Apr 08, 2014 11:49 am Have you checked with Strata to see if any of these changes are allowed ? If you impact the structural integrity of the building, you can kiss your equity goodbye when the law suits come. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 13Apr 08, 2014 11:51 am Sorry but taking a door off a room doesn't suddenly redefine it as no longer being a room. Leaving off a door in the first place doesn't make it part of the hallway. What your insurance company did to replace carpet is not applicable to building regulations. It is a clearly defined room as it stands and if it was sold to you on plan as a study then it should have met requirements. As a caveat I will state my regulations are out of date as I've not been working as an architect since the late 90's but I can guarantee you that you won't sneak in anything without meeting regulations to the letter if you intend to set up a 2nd bedroom that compiles with regulations. Completed a knock down and rebuild in northern Melbourne. Handover completed 27/09/2013 and now moved in. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 14Apr 08, 2014 11:54 am kavehman Have you checked with Strata to see if any of these changes are allowed ? I've looked in the bodycorp 'rules', and it just says you must keep noise to a minimum, and only use power tools between 9am-5pm. Also interesting that bodycorp rates are only charged by the size of the apartment, not by the number of rooms. Infact, nowhere in the bodycorp or section32 does it state how many rooms each apartment has - only their size. If you impact the structural integrity of the building, you can kiss your equity goodbye when the law suits come.[/quote] None of the internal walls are load bearing. The walls between apartments are structural thick concrete slabs. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 15Apr 08, 2014 12:17 pm Thanks for your reply. Bluesuede Sorry but taking a door off a room doesn't suddenly redefine it as no longer being a room. Leaving off a door in the first place doesn't make it part of the hallway. What your insurance company did to replace carpet is not applicable to building regulations. It is a clearly defined room as it stands and if it was sold to you on plan as a study then it should have met requirements. Well then, as-is, it doesn't comply as a study. As a separate room it is required to have a window to natural light.. There must be some method of getting around this. The legislation requires a 'window', not just an opening to the hallway as is the current situation without the door. The designer must have argued the study to be a continuation of the hall? Again, I can't see anything on section32 or bodycorp documents which show internal plans of any apartments - the floorplan is from realestate.com.au when we purchased - not a legal document. Bluesuede As a caveat I will state my regulations are out of date as I've not been working as an architect since the late 90's I wouldn't of thought there would be drastic changes since then... Bluesuede but I can guarantee you that you won't sneak in anything without meeting regulations to the letter if you intend to set up a 2nd bedroom that compiles with regulations. Sure. So then the only clause in the regulation which is going to be sketchy is; Natural lighting must be provided by windows that... are open to .. [an]other space open to the sky... So really I'd have to argue that the hallway is open to the sky. Or that the hall is a continuation of the lounge room. Looks like I need to find the workaround the original architect did to allow the study as a room and play to that. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 16Apr 08, 2014 12:28 pm To be safe I would still run your plans by Strata. I was always under the impression that changing walls around required strata approval. From what I have been told you own the air inbetween the walls but not the walls. if that makes sense ? Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 17Apr 08, 2014 12:50 pm kavehman To be safe I would still run your plans by Strata. I was always under the impression that changing walls around required strata approval. From what I have been told you own the air inbetween the walls but not the walls. if that makes sense ? Strangely, yes. haha. Thanks kavehman, I'll check with strata then. By strata do you mean the body corporate of the building, or some government body which creates/approves/manages strata titles? Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 18Apr 08, 2014 12:56 pm Stive kavehman To be safe I would still run your plans by Strata. I was always under the impression that changing walls around required strata approval. From what I have been told you own the air inbetween the walls but not the walls. if that makes sense ? Strangely, yes. haha. Thanks kavehman, I'll check with strata then. By strata do you mean the body corporate of the building, or some government body which creates/approves/manages strata titles? By strata I mean body corporate. They have some odd powers over what you can do with your space, but it's to protect the integrity of the building and the rights of your neighbours (and yourself) to enjoy their apartments. Good luck Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 19Apr 08, 2014 2:09 pm What floor is your unit on? I don't know of any body corp that will allow you to remove walls. If they do you'll need to provide a structural engineer report to state that it's sound. After that (if they do let you go ahead) you open yourself up for litigation if something goes wrong in the future). If you can move/remove walls you may be able to consider getting rid of the laundry to make the room bigger. You could have a cupboard laundry. Is the cupboard next to it big enough? If not do not remove it. If you have to use a shared laundry that detracts from the price. Re: Should I turn my apartment study into a 2nd bedroom?? 20Apr 08, 2014 2:19 pm travelbug What floor is your unit on? I don't know of any body corp that will allow you to remove walls. If they do you'll need to provide a structural engineer report to state that it's sound. After that (if they do let you go ahead) you open yourself up for litigation if something goes wrong in the future). First floor. I'm fairly certain none of the walls are structural, there is a concrete slab above and below, and separating each apartment. The walls are using minimal amounts of steel framing and couldn't be strong enough to be providing support to the slab above - barely strong enough to keep the plaster board up . But yeh, i'll check with bodycorp/strata to be sure. travelbug If you can move/remove walls you may be able to consider getting rid of the laundry to make the room bigger. You could have a cupboard laundry. Is the cupboard next to it big enough? If not do not remove it. If you have to use a shared laundry that detracts from the price. It is already a cupboard/euro laundry. The C cupboard has the hot water system in it so couldn't move. I found a 2bdr apartment for sale in the same building, and the 2nd bedroom size is 2.8 x 2.6m (so obv legal size), but has its own natural light through the use of a skinny passage. The apartments are roughly the same size Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ start from at least $20,000 just for fixtures and finishes and then add on for moving plumbing and extra for a concrete floored house last new bathroom we installed in a… 1 19586 I use Tramex moisture meter and it will tell me instantly if the wall is cement sheet or plaster or masonite but most people dont have the equipment. 5 7086 the step up is 30mm and wanting it to be flat . how much does the concrete have to be lowered .we plan on removing bath and lenghten shower and adding seat. the old bath… 0 11835 |