Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Mar 10, 2014 12:58 am The 2007 version of the Guide To Standards and Tolerances grew from a concept introduced by the former Housing Guarantee Fund (HGFL),Housing Industry Association (HIA and Master Builders Association (MBA).The original document comprised a simple 4 page document which aligned with the legislation that existed at the time namely House Contracts Guarantee Act.In 1996 with the demise of the HGFL and the introduction of the new insurance based Builder Warranty scheme, the original 4 page document got lost in the changeover.The Building Control Commission (BCC) as it was known wanted nothing to do with introducing a new Guide to suit the new legislation and implied warranties that were implemented under the Domestic Building Contracts Act.The BCC argued that a Guide to Standards and Tolerances was not a regulatory document and had little relevance to the new insurance based scheme. At that stage I had been employed by the HIA as a Techincal Adviser however in 1996 took up a position with the BCC as the Domestic Inspections Co Ordinator.I drafted the 1996 version and with input from the HIA and MBA produced a document that was later accepted by the BCC.Subsequently the BCC revised the 1996 version to produce the 1999, 2002 & 2007 versions.The Building Commission claim copyright to this document when in fact the concept grew from a joint venture between the HGFL,HIA and MBA.My role in the process was to revise and redraft the Guide in my own time to suit the new legislation. In 1998 I was appointed Claim Manager of Home Owners Warranty (HIA Insurance Services).At that stage the Builders Warranty Insurance Policy covered defective building work carried out by the builder.The Guide to Standards and Tolerances was an invaluable tool in the asessment of defective building work claims and later at VCAT hearings.In 2002 the legislators reduced Builder Warranty Insurance cover to incomplete / defective building work in instances where the builder was either insolvent, disappeared or had died. The defective building work component was thrown to the wolves for builders and owners to resolve disputes between themselves. In 2002 I represented Dexta Corporation (Builder Warranty Insurer) before the NSW Select Committee - Enquiry into Quality of Building in NSW.One of the recommendations made was for NSW to introduce and adopt a similar Guide in order to reduce the incidence of building disputes. When I drafted the 1996 version I took into consideration the connection between the various Australian Standards and the BCA, in effect the Guide simply enforced those tolerances that were contained in various Australian Standards and of which were adopted under the BCA as referenced Australian Standards.Those standards and tolerances not identified in any referenced Australian Standard were adopted as best practice by the various stakeholders in the domestic building industry ie restumpers, waterproofing, etc. Hope this assists in explaining how and why the Guide To Standards and Tolerances came into existence. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 2Mar 10, 2014 8:51 am Interesting as to how it came into being and thanks for posting the info. I'm sure a few others especially the building professionals will chime in... viewtopic.php?f=1&t=65623 Stewie Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 3Mar 10, 2014 10:48 am It is interesting to read the opening post and no one can deny the amount of work required to put such a guide to bed, a task made difficult with having additional Deemed To Satisfy (DTS) standards to cross reference. I am on record on this forum as not being in favour of the production of such booklets or guides and this can be referenced in the thread that Stewie D linked. The time and energy of talented persons that has been directed towards the production of such booklets would have been better spent examining the regulations and standards for areas of needed improvement rather than compiling a check list of maximum 'allowable' tolerances. There are many poor, misinterpreted or non existent regulations that need attention. Surely this should be a priority. The days old post that I have linked below makes mention of one such regulation for readers added interest. viewtopic.php?p=1145148#p1145148 Gingermegs The Guide to Standards and Tolerances was an invaluable tool in the asessment of defective building work claims and later at VCAT hearings. Guides are not legislated and should not be used as evidence at hearings as they contain numerous unreferenced statements, some of which may be outdated. Standards and regulations are constantly updated but guides and hand books are not. As such, statements can be quickly outdated. I posted the following in the thread that Stewie D has linked. SaveH2O One quick reference guide, the plumbing handbook SAA HB39 1997, published by Standards Australia and introduced as a quick reference guide to compliment AS3500, drew together a number of Australian Standards and other relevant standards regarding the construction of a complete metal roof and⁄or wall system. The guide ceased to be published by Standards Australia in 2004 yet remains on sale. No replacement has yet being published. It is still widely referenced by plumbers and on various manufacturing and plumbing websites. It was also referenced at many tribunal hearings. Being published by Standards Australia led many to believe that it was a standards booklet but it was never cited in legislation. Even the BCA was fooled as per the BCA 96 Volume 2 (since revised) regarding roof drainage, flashings, insulation and cappings that stated that it should be consulted in relation to SAA HB39-1997. The main reason guideline handbooks are popular is because the Standards are so expensive to purchase. This is further compounded by other Standards often being cross referenced when trying to find one answer in a standards booklet. Despite this deficiency, anything that discourages practitioners to reference the appropriate current regulations and standards should not be encouraged, least of all by vested interest building associations and regulatory bodies. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 4Mar 10, 2014 11:27 am I agree with H2O's comment above 100%. The guide should never have been more than an index pointer into existing standars and codes for the sake of convenience, as traversing code and standards can be very time consuming even for an educated professional, let alone you average tradie. IT is a disgrace that standards , and the BCA have to be purchased and are so expensive. They, like all legislation, should be feely available as PDFs online. Actually You can get a lot of them free, but they are not maintained. The fact that the govt does not provide them free electronically , only via librares or council offices, shows it does not care about FOI as usual. Nor does the govt care about consumer protection. As H2O says, more effort is needed in these important areas, not in published further useless brochures. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 5Mar 10, 2014 11:38 am Australian Standards are produced by Standards Australia, a private company. It is extremely annoying when you run into a dead end when looking up one standards booklet and discover that all of the information you need is only found in one or more other booklets. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 6Mar 10, 2014 8:13 pm Its easy to be drawn into all sorts of arguments both against and for the need for Standards and Tolerances.They are not absolute and can be contested.A critical requirement is that when a Building Permit is issued, it attracts the current version of the BCA and any referenced Australian Standards, in this regard the building work must comply with the provisions of the BCA / Standards that apply at the time. A Building Contract may specify greater standards and tolerances than those set out in the Guide.By adopting this approach the onus is placed upon the Builder to comply with those specified standards and tolerances. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 7Mar 11, 2014 12:09 pm SaveH2O Australian Standards are produced by Standards Australia, a private company. Produced? Nothing can be produced and be made law unless the govt references it in the laws it makes. Before it can do that some govt "expert" has to oversee the standard and agree it is relevant. Thus the govt has a handle on the adoption of standards. And thus I feel it should make them available , at least electronically, for free. A standard, is a defacto law. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 8Mar 11, 2014 1:01 pm One very important aspect to consider when we are discussing the quality of workmanship relates to the actual tradesperson carrying out the work.As an example many bricklayers simply adopt the trade by working as a brickies labourer for several months.Gone are the days when a bricklayer was taught his trade by an experienced bricklayer through a formal apprenticeship.Likewise for many carpenters, there is no formal apprenticship but rather a work in progress experience.These trades then gain recognition through RPL and on site assessment by a training provider.In the process many have never been taught the importance of critical points, they in turn then take on board labourrers and the process starts again.Whilst skills shortage is adressed the end result is that the industry suffers through an overall absence of quality control.It will only get worse before it gets better unless governments take heed of these trends. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 9Mar 11, 2014 3:00 pm qebtel SaveH2O Australian Standards are produced by Standards Australia, a private company. Produced? Nothing can be produced and be made law unless the govt references it in the laws it makes. I quote from the Chambers dictionary. produce "v.t. to bring forward or out: to extend: to bring into being:to bring forth: to yield: to bring about: to make: to put on the stage: to prepare for exhibition to the public.-v.i.to yield: to create value." Standards Australia produce many Standards. They can be brought into legislation, mandated by other bodies or used in contracts without being enshrined in legislation. They can also be updated or discarded. Standards Australia also produce Australian Standard booklets. Stewie D linked the H1 thread "Guide to standards and Tolerance is useless!!" As such, that thread is now part of this thread. I have also referenced part of one of my posts from that thread into this thread. The opening paragraph of my first post on the "Guide to standards and Tolerance is useless!!" thread states: SaveH2O The Guide to Standards and Tolerances is just that...a guide. The guidelines are sourced from the BCA and Australian Standards. Australian Standards are produced by Standards Australia, a private company. Australian Standards have no legal standing unless mandated or used in a contract. qebtel; in regards to your feeling that Australian Standards should be made freely available by the Government, a lot of people 'feel' this but the fact is that Standards Australia produce a product which is protected by copyright law and the product that Standards Australia produce is what generates the income that allows the company to continue. The Australian Government do not co-own the intellectual property produced by Standards Australia and regardless of what people may 'feel', the Government cannot make that product freely available. However, having different standards, codes and regulations has brought about some unsatisfactory situations including... 1. Misunderstanding and misapplication of the hierarchy requirement when there is a conflict between regulations and standards. 2. A lack of general knowledge and understanding to recognise a possible conflict between regulations and standards. 3. The need to buy expensive Standards booklets that often cross reference other Standards booklets. Many tradies do not constantly update their booklets due to costs and some tradies do not own Standards booklets. 4. The perceived need to produce hand books, technical solution sheets and guide books to 'assist' tradies, other professionals and the public. These can and often do cause further confusion and are not an answer, just a Bandaid for a broken leg. Many contain false information. 5. The public being kept in the dark about regulatory matters...and you know what they say about mushrooms! It is simply not feasible for Joe Public to buy multiple Standards booklets. I also know of many instances where a new home buyer has been given the wrong information by industry 'professionals' and regulatory bodies and they have accepted that 'information' as factual. 6. The extreme difficulty of bringing about change to poor or non existent regulations when trying to deal with Google jockey bureaucrats who often have no real world experience and who are just part of a cog. Boy...could I go on about that one!!! The above list is by no means complete. qebtel; I agree with your sentiment that it would be better if everything was made freely available but that is not possible with the current structure. I would also agree with anyone who feels that having everything encompassed into one set of regulations would be better but that again is not currently possible. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 10Mar 12, 2014 10:25 am well thanks for the definition of "produce" very helpful that. lol I agree with your post, however it leaves me no wiser in understanding just what Standards Australia does as a private concern, that shouldnt really be done by bureaucracy? If Standards were not mentioned in legislation, they they would have no standing, as they would not be enforceable. That was my point. I think that is the case with some. Also my point was that a doctrine of the Westminster system is that legilsation should not be inaccessible to the man in the street. This is because ignorance of the law is not a defence to a charge, and a man in the street should not have to pay to learn what the laws are. Do you see what I am driving at? I still say standards should be freely available, and I dont see a reason why they shouldnt be. So far I have downloaded them all free anyway. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 11Mar 12, 2014 5:54 pm qebtel well thanks for the definition of "produce" very helpful that. lol I took your text to be questioning my use of the word "produce". Sometimes the intended meaning of what is posted is not defined and/or understood as intended. qebtel I agree with your post, however it leaves me no wiser in understanding just what Standards Australia does as a private concern, that shouldnt really be done by bureaucracy? I also believe that standards and regulations could and should be administered by a single body but we have the system that exists and that's that so to speak. I have wondered how it is managed overseas. qebtel If Standards were not mentioned in legislation, they they would have no standing, as they would not be enforceable. That was my point. I think that is the case with some. Hierarchy has the BCA as the primary document and Australian Standards as DTS (called up) documents. A mandated Australian Standard can be written into a contract to have precedence over a BCA standard. The text below is taken from the Standards Australia website linked further below. "Standards are voluntary consensus documents that are developed by agreement and their application is by choice unless their use is mandated by government or called up in a contract." http://www.standards.org.au/StandardsDe ... e-Law.aspx A standard or indeed any clause, as long as it does not come under the definition of an unfair contract or is illegal, can be written into any contract by choice and is enforceable. People need to read any contract thoroughly and have it checked by a qualified third party before signing but many don't. It's baffling. There have been many threads on H1 where a person has posted that, for example, they are not allowed as per their contract to have their own building inspector. This constitutes an unfair contract but until told, they did not even know that the term existed. http://www.consumerlaw.gov.au/content/t ... _Guide.PDF Australian Standards are referenced in many contracts as Deemed To Satisfy (DTS) documents. This means that builders for example can pick and choose a cocktail of regulations and Standards. Some sections of the BCA and AS are opposed to each other, allowing a regulatory cocktail to occur. The OP on one recent thread that I posted on came across one such opposing BCA regulation and Standard and was justifiably confused. You will find the passage prior to the first diagram in the link below. viewtopic.php?p=1143895#p1143895 qebtel Also my point was that a doctrine of the Westminster system is that legilsation should not be inaccessible to the man in the street. This is because ignorance of the law is not a defence to a charge, and a man in the street should not have to pay to learn what the laws are. Do you see what I am driving at? I still say standards should be freely available, and I dont see a reason why they shouldnt be. So far I have downloaded them all free anyway. I agree with your sentiment and I am not defending the current system; there are a lot of flaws but the practicality of making Australian Standards freely available doesn't stand up to close scrutiny. They are also free to numerous tradies because they choose not to buy them! (tongue in cheek) I, for one, could make myself really unpopular by starting a thread that exposes many deficiencies and how some builders and other industry 'professionals' and tradies exploit them...but I won't! I have however commented on poor or non existent regulations and Standards many times in individual threads and will continue to do so if it helps someone understand the ramifications of those deficiencies to their own situation. It is good to see someone else recognise some of the flaws and post those concerns. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 12Mar 12, 2014 11:02 pm I can recall the old Uniform Building Regulations (UBR) which were replaced in the early 80's with the Victorian Building Regulations (VBR).Both were precriptive in nature ie they desIn 1cribed how to build certain elements.When the BCA was introduced in 1991 it called up a host of Australian Standards as deemed to comply ie if you complied with a certain Australian Standard then it would satisfy the intent of the BCA.The BCA also contained a precriptive element but not to the extent of the UBR or VBR.The Australian Building Codes Board is the governing body who administers the BCA (National Construction Code).Standards Australia are responsible for the development and introduction of new Australian Standards or updating of existing Standards.I can recall when I was employed in the role as Techincal Adviser with the HIA of the need for the HIA to attend the various Standards Committee meetings to either contest or approve of new Standards, it was an ongoing process and one which the HIA had an important role to play.Any Australian Standard referenced in the BCA is a mandated Australian Standard and can be relied upon in terms of compliance with a BCA provision. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 13Mar 13, 2014 11:23 am SaveH2O I took your text to be questioning my use of the word "produce". Sometimes the intended meaning of what is posted is not defined and/or understood as intended. lol I think any adult , irrespective of upringing, knows what produce means. SaveH2O A standard or indeed any clause, as long as it does not come under the definition of an unfair contract or is illegal, can be written into any contract by choice and is enforceable. People need to read any contract thoroughly and have it checked by a qualified third party before signing but many don't. It's baffling. Not sure why you mentioned contracts, as absolutely anything can be wriiten into a contract. Contract law is a another type of law altogther, not what I was talking about. I think where legislation contradicts each other, there is often a clause stating under which circumstances a piece of legislation takes precedence. If there isnt such a rider, you have the choice of complying with either. My building permit for a shed allows the drainage to comply with either 1 of 2 subsections of AS3500. SaveH2O I, for one, could make myself really unpopular by starting a thread that exposes many deficiencies and how some builders and other industry 'professionals' and tradies exploit them...but I won't! Go on, dont be shy! I think I know what you are talking about, when expose sh0ddy practices within sections of the industry , it invokes the ire of some players in those fields and you have endless arguments occurring. Dont worry, I know what goes on, after all, Ive read just about every thread on every forum on this site, and others. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 14Mar 13, 2014 12:06 pm SaveH2O are you expanding into providing legal advice now as well
You are putting the educated lawyers like myself out of business Must say that this is a fantastic topic and it's great to see this type of conversation taking place. Take my hat off to those who spend time in understanding the law. I wish more would do the same. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 15Mar 13, 2014 12:54 pm Slightly off topic but I'll post it anyway. This month's issue of Choice magazine (March 2014) contains an interesting article on the state of the current building industry. Well worth a read. Much of the material seems to have been supplied by the Building Compliance Reform Association http://www.bcra.asn.au/. In the view of this organisation and I quote: "about half of the licensed builders in Australia are "cowboys" who shouldn't have been licensed or insured and can't be trusted." On the subject of making information accessible to people - one poor person found out that her builder was involved in a VCAT proceeding at the time he quoted for the job and had numerous complaints and a successful warranty claim on the record against him - all of which was known to the VBC (?) VCAT and the insurance company that approved the builder's warranty insurance - but not to her. I think by VBC they mean VBA. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 16Mar 13, 2014 1:12 pm qebtel Not sure why you mentioned contracts, as absolutely anything can be wriiten into a contract. I mentioned contract in reference to you posting "If Standards were not mentioned in legislation, they they would have no standing, as they would not be enforceable." My post in reply was to convey that an un-mandated Standard can be used and is enforceable if written into a contract provided of course that it does not constitute an unfair clause and is legal. I always keep in mind that others also read the threads. I also posted links to a Government website dealing with "Unfair Contract Law Terms" and a link to Standards Australia and an excerpt from that link dealing with "Australian Standards in legislation and case law" that were my references. Not just sh0ddy practices unfortunately. There are also a number of products legally sold that are not compliant once fitted. This most often comes back to a tradies lack of regulatory knowledge and that itself is often reflective on the financial burden of maintaining current expensive manuals. There was one product sold until recently that was a category eligible $500 rebate product but it was not compliant when fitted. That didn't stop plumbers from fitting it and supplying a compliance certificate. Hand books and guides cannot adequately cover everything that is in the regulations and Standards as we both know. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 17Mar 13, 2014 2:17 pm tstr1a Must say that this is a fantastic topic and it's great to see this type of conversation taking place. The topic could easily encompass many areas and unfortunately the discussion is not all rhetorical, there are many examples of serious regulatory ignorance in the H1 forums that have effected forum members. Some of the issues discussed on different threads have been almost unbelievable. It shouldn't come down to the luck of the draw as to which tradie or 'professional' you get. Have you read the articles below? They highlight a situation that happened only because numerous industry professionals from manufacturers to architects to builders to plumbers lacked some very basic regulatory knowledge. http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/hidden-report ... 1hx55.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/architec ... -9fm4.html http://www.smh.com.au/news/domain/news/ ... ntentSwap2 http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/complaints-po ... 15gbz.html The report linked below discusses on pages 17-18 the findings of random inspections on 35 display homes by Fair Trading inspectors for roof drainage compliance. It also discusses on page 27 the practice of showing nominal locations of downpipes on house plans. http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov.au/pdfs/ ... report.pdf 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 18Mar 13, 2014 6:14 pm Liliana On the subject of making information accessible to people - one poor person found out that her builder was involved in a VCAT proceeding at the time he quoted for the job and had numerous complaints and a successful warranty claim on the record against him - all of which was known to the VBC (?) VCAT and the insurance company that approved the builder's warranty insurance - but not to her. Many past V-CAT judgements can be found on Austlii – http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/ 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 19Mar 13, 2014 6:54 pm I will throw something else into the mixer and I say this without prejudice.The previous Builders Warranty scheme in Victoria was administerd by the HGFL, however the legislation under which they operated was very shallow in terms of enforcement.The HGFL were also the court so to speak in terms of appeals against their own decisions.With the introduction of the Insurance based scheme in 1996 the HGFL were abolished and replaced by VCAT - Domestic Building List under the Domestic Building Contracts and Tribunal Act 1995.& Private Warranty Insurers.The Building Act 1993 was beefed up to allow the Insurers to notify the Building Practitioners Board of a failure of a Builder to carry out a direction of the insurer to rectify defective building work.The Warranty Insurance at the time insured the owner against the events of Non Completion due to insolvency, death, disappearance,and non completion due to termination of contract by the owner.It also insured against the event of defective building work for 6 & half years after date of completion. This more or less followed on from the cover provided under the HGFL scheme.The Domestic Building Contracts Act introduced the concept of implied warranties which are attached to every domestic building contract, these were also replicated and covered under the Builder Warranty policies. I was in the hot seat as Claims Manager - Home Owners Warranty from 1998 to 2001 and during this period we had a strike rate of around 95% in getting builders back to rectify their defective building work, although the licence to occupy the site by the builder under the terms of the building contract had expired, the warranty insurance policy allowed for the insurer to appoint its own builder to rectify defective work.Naturally we always gave the original builder an opportunity to rectify.The only cost to the insurer in terms of defective building work in instances where the builder was still trading was associated with administration costs. A vast majority of the insurers claims costs were associated with non completion claims due to insolvency , death, disappearance or termination of contract and this in part was due to non existent underwriting stategies / policies . In 2002 the government of the day reduced builder warranty insurance cover to non completion claims only against the event of insolvency , death or disappearance of the builder.At the same time the warranty insurers doubled their premiums and yet reduced the amount of cover. Where do consumers go to have their defective building work rectified in instances where the builder is still trading?.VCAT, Building Commission or Consumer Affairs?. Re: Guide To Standards and Tolerances 20Mar 17, 2014 4:40 pm Thank you for posting re: this topic. I will say the following without prejudice that we have started (and finished) building with only a slab of concrete as it was constructed not to approved council plans and is currently going through tribunal to seek costs for demolition. As a result of the builder threatening to sue us (yeah bully tactics) I cannot mention any more than this but I wanted to say that we have found the standards and tolerance guide very useful as it pointed out to us laypersons just how wrong a few things with the construction are. Although it only forms a small part of our evidence (past and current survey and expert witness report are main ones) thank you for your work I find it amusing that the HIA has an involvement with standards as apparently they no longer care! ETA You hope like heck the builder dies, disappears or becomes insolvent, there is only tribunal to seek action as in our case exactly. I guess if they make enough monumental mistakes like ours, it is very likely they will be insolvent in time anyway if they are a smaller builder. We have had to notify HOW that there is a dispute so I wonder if that excludes any further insurance being offered? Building Standards; Getting It Right! Don't think they are designed for double brick. WA has a particular way of building and unfortunately that's the way a large amount of sills are finished. 3 6978 I believe this is correct. From the picture you can see the power was put in last so the electrician knew where the water was. Really it's a common sense issue more… 4 5138 2 8600 |