Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Oct 27, 2013 8:33 am Hi All, We have been in the process of designing our home with a builder on the Gold Coast for the last 6 months. We came to the builder with our plan and while we have kept the original plan, we have tweaked things along the way to make it more practical and also to fit in with council requirements. When we visited the builder, we told them "this is our plan, this is our budget, these are the features/materials we want to use, can you build it under $xxx ?" They were happy to work with this so we decided to give them a shot. We have had soil tests done, worked out house siting, kitchen appliances/ furnature, pretty much gone to the point where we can get a final price. At our last meeting, the gentleman said all the hard work is done and here is the price. The final price was 30% over what we agreed our budget was! We looked at him confused yet and disappointed and told him this is way beyond what we can afford, he said for an extra $xxx it only costs you a few hundered a week on top of your home loan! We walked out on the builder and will find someone else to build our home. We haven't paid a cent apart from the soil tests, what I was wondering, if my hubby and I have designed the plans and their drafty has tweaked it to comply with council, move BIRs, a window here or there, are we still the "owners" of our plans? We have designed the concept plan, and not much has changed structurally, what if the builder would challenge us to say they own the design since they made the final changes to it? Any feedback appreciated Re: House Plan Ownership 2Oct 27, 2013 9:21 am 3 things: 1) Welcome to H1! 2) As long as you have the original concept drawing you first gave the builder which you can work from with the next builder then there should be no problem. The builder will feel annoyed (or insert expletive here) that they have done quite a lot of work by the sounds of it and are now missing out, their fault for blowing the budget or not informing you that the changes/tweaks/inclusions were having an upward affect on the budget. What I wouldn't do is take to the builders 'council ready' plans to another builder or use them to proceed down the owner-builder route. 3) Most importantly, don't start 'what if' this early in the project - you'll go mad! Good luck! ----------------------------------------------- http://pab34newdigs.blogspot.com.au/ ----------------------------------------------- Re: House Plan Ownership 3Oct 27, 2013 12:30 pm If the builder has modified your 'plan', then the builder has copyright to the version he produced. You still have your original 'plan' and the entitlement to have that modified to suit. It sounds like your 'plan' was not drafted. All said and done, you have told the builder your requirements and he has progressed your 'plan' at his time and expense and been unable to cost what you want within your budget. Builders are not charities but it sounds as though the builder has been very charitable in this instance. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: House Plan Ownership 4Oct 27, 2013 2:37 pm Yes you are absolutely correct, builders are not charities, but this one has been deceptive in what we initially agreed on. If the price was right, we would sign up with them in a heartbeat, but being advised to extend our price range by 30% is disgusting. And the 6 months of wasting our time at what cost is that? We are back to square one looking for someone to build our home. Also having a mortgage on our block of land is costing us money, no one is asking for charity. Bottom line is he said he could come under budget, took him 6 months to realise they couldn't do it. Re: House Plan Ownership 5Oct 27, 2013 2:41 pm SaveH2O If the builder has modified your 'plan', then the builder has copyright to the version he produced. Sh2o, I don't think that statement is correct otherwise anyone could modify/create their own version of a Metra/Plant/Cor...(you know what I mean) plan and call that version their own. The builder may have a claim on a particular feature that they introduced to the plan but the copyright for the layout/interaction of each of the rooms remains with the original designer i.e. the property owner in this case (assuming they haven't knocked it off from a project home somewhere.....not that that ever happens.... ) ----------------------------------------------- http://pab34newdigs.blogspot.com.au/ ----------------------------------------------- Re: House Plan Ownership 6Oct 27, 2013 3:03 pm PAB_34 SaveH2O If the builder has modified your 'plan', then the builder has copyright to the version he produced. Sh2o, I don't think that statement is correct I speak from experience in circumstances almost identical to those that the OP posted. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: House Plan Ownership 7Oct 27, 2013 3:20 pm Welcome! We too had hiccups to build our own dream home. Our first attempt ended similar to yours, but we were using an existing plan. In the end we designed our own house plan, it was very detailed and drafted by my FIL. All we needed was an engineer to look at the design and determine the bracing and slab requirements and then they would have been council ready. So here's some thoughts.... you could take your concept drawing to your own draftsman, then take your detailed drafted plans, soil report and a brief to several builders to give you an indicative cost to build. IMHO this is the only way to know roughly if the current builder is too high, too low, or spot on. If the build is above your budget you can then make an informed decision on how to progress, ie to not build and save more to build what you want exactly as you want or to make changes to your build to reduce the cost (especially on internals.) We gave our plans to three builders (who I researched extensively) and asked them to give us a indication of cost to build. We did not go with the most expensive and we did not go with the cheapest. It was an interesting process and I am glad we did it this way. I am very happy with the changes we had to make to the build to get it within budget and with the builder we are using. The norm when you initially start working with a builder is for them to charge a few grand to cover soil testing and the drafting stage (ie to cover their costs). So don't be shocked if you take your concept drawings to another builder they may ask for some $ up up front. Good luck with your next steps in your build journey. This is only a hiccup. There is always a way, sometimes it takes more thought or more time, but you will get there in the end:-) Ps - I consider our plans ours, but to be honest unless the builder started churning out hundreds of houses identical to ours (which I doubt because our design is a little out of the box) it wouldn't be worth the time and effort to take them to court. The build - https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=67554 The Yard - viewtopic.php?f=19&t=67695 Re: House Plan Ownership 8Oct 27, 2013 3:34 pm Sunshine2013 If the price was right, we would sign up with them in a heartbeat, but being advised to extend our price range by 30% is disgusting. Regardless of his tardiness, if the price given is close to the mark, another builder would find it very hard to knock 30% off and this is where you could find further angst. It is possible that the builder has over quoted to get away from the job if it looked like having little return, after all, the market has taken an upward turn in recent months. If you take the builder's plans to another builder and decide to go with the second builder, that builder would almost certainly want to purchase the plans from the first builder. This needn't be a bad outcome. Do the drafted plans state copyright and has the relationship with the first builder irreparably broken down? 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: House Plan Ownership 10Oct 27, 2013 3:41 pm There's plans and plans. There is a set % you need to do if you don't "own" the plans before you use them. But - as they were yours - and depending on changes - you may be OK. Was it understood at the start that you owned them and any changes did not change this. I reckon you'd be OK regardless - I've seen direct "steals" from other plans that other builders have done - clearly using the 3rd parties plans - with minor changes. Maybe façade etc. Re: House Plan Ownership 12Oct 27, 2013 5:31 pm I think copyright law does not require and notification of copyright. The copyright attaches when a concept take form, usually in a sketch or written form. I also do not think it is as simple as changing a certain % as all houses are basically the same. I believe it comes down to distinctive features that are present and how far from that the tweaked design is. It could be that the new design is joint owned. Just saying that the new plan is owned and copyright to the builder does not necessarily make it so, however proving this is the case may be harder and more time consuming. I would see what is salvageable for the current builder and where compromises can be made. As to builders not being charities, I think it is all part and parcel of the industry that a certain amount of risk is present until a legally binding contract is in place. Good luck. Best regards Mark Re: House Plan Ownership 13Oct 27, 2013 6:05 pm And here is some official info at the Australian copyright site http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-ans ... rchitects/ The article you are after is the House Plan Copyright G017.pdf Stewie Re: House Plan Ownership 14Oct 27, 2013 6:55 pm tjilpi Rather than ditch the builder, why not work on the plans to see what you can delete to bring it within your price range. Maybe you are being unrealistic with what you expect to get for the money you have. I think calling the builder 'deceitful' is a big stretch. He cannot give you a definite price until the plans are finalized and costed properly. By your post you have only paid for soil tests. Therefore, he has not received a cent for either he or his draftsman's time so far. Hardly deceitful!!! The original concept plans are yours so of course you can use them. But you are rather unrealistic to expect the properly drawn / drafted set without paying a cent! This builder was recommended by a friend from work, we arranged a meeting and expressed exactly what we wanted ( building materials, flooring, heating/cooling, windows,etc.) We have had the block of land for just over 2 years now and have done our research into exactly what we wanted. We asked if this was achievable within our budget and the builder agreed so we proceeded, if we would have known he would grossly exceed our budget, why would we waste our time, and waste his? We brought our own soil test but were never asked to pay for the drafting of plans, this doesn't change anything as we would've been happy to pay for this service. 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