Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Sep 27, 2013 1:21 pm Hi, Before start writing, I’d like to apology for my English first, I’m not originally English speaking person. I’m trying to do my best for making you understand. My partner and I have recently got permanent residency, so we started to search a house for buying, but it was hard to find a house that we want. Therefore, my partner wanted to build a new house. Through a hassle, we chose a building company and paid deposit. When we were arguing with them because of upgrades cost, my partner found an advertisement on realestate.com. The advertisement is for house & land package with same plan of us, same company, but cheaper price (it was different location, but we knew the price of land) and providing more things (such as internal wall painting and etc.). We were very upset, so contacted our sales rep and demand same price and upgrades. However, he said it was a human error and he couldn’t do anymore for us. We contacted client service manager and sales manager they were like recorders, speaking exactly same. We had a meeting with sales rep and sales manager, but sales manager kept saying “We are the best builder in WA” After 2 hours meeting, we decided not to build with them. We cancelled pre-lim contract. Not only because of this situation, but also we disappointed for their selection room and pre start book. We found another builder who has a floor plan we love. We met a sales rep in a display house and had a meeting in show room which is great. We explained him our previous experience, he said it was a big mistake. We signed pre concept agreement and paid deposit again. We have been in good mode until yesterday, except very slow process. However, yesterday, my partner found advertisement on realestate.com again, same company, same plan, same price, but providing things we are not provided. We complained about this to sales rep and demanded to provide same things as the advertisement. A sales manager rang to my partner, and said the add is wrong, will be changed, human error. My partner asked her “Don’t you have a proper procedure for advertisement?” She answered; “Have you never made any mistake?” If you feel you are treated differently in bed way, even though you pay same amount of money, can you accept this? Is this situation very common in building companies? And I want to ask people, are we too fussy and strict? Should we stop searching and say yes for everything to builders after we signed? Thanks for reading this long and tired story... Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 2Sep 27, 2013 1:45 pm I think developers give discounts to builders on the land so maybe this is why the price is different on a house and land package (along with any other issues such as site costs etc that may be different on your block or not included in the package price). I'm sure the developers have also told the builders not to disclose their land cost so maybe their standard reply is to say they've made a mistake. In any event, I would only be concerned about finding a builder that will provide the quaility of finish I am after and a floor plan that will work for my family. If it meets that and represents good value to me I'll proceed. If someone happens to get a better deal - good luck to them. http://camdenbuild.blogspot.com.au/ by invite only please pm me Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 3Sep 27, 2013 4:28 pm Generally house and land packages will be cheaper than a block and house bought separately. This is because the blocks are the less desirable on the estate and are sold to the builder at a discount. Examples of issues can be Noisy - On Main Road Odd shapes Small Bad orientation Also see http://www.anewhouse.com.au/2012/02/house-and-land…ey-a-good-idea/ I prefer to pay more and get the block I want The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 4Sep 27, 2013 4:49 pm bashworth Generally house and land packages will be cheaper than a block and house bought separately. This is because the blocks are the less desirable on the estate and are sold to the builder at a discount. Examples of issues can be Noisy - On Main Road Odd shapes Small Bad orientation Also see http://www.anewhouse.com.au/2012/02/house-and-land…ey-a-good-idea/ I prefer to pay more and get the block I want This is entirely correct. Also, basically you have signed a contract. If you wish to try and get the price down a little the time to do that is before you have signed the bottom line when they want your business. After that time you have signed a legally binding contract and they are not obligated to change that contract. Building the Leabrook with Fairmont Homes in Mallala, SA. Building contract 24/3/13 Council Approval 18/6/13 Selections 29/6/13 & 1/7/13 Site works 21/10/13 Slab 7/11/13 Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 5Sep 27, 2013 9:46 pm Another thing to factor in is that we all are having to negotiate every element of the price - the advertised price in a newspaper or online doesn't actually reflect a true cost - every house will need to be personally tailored to the block, the local requirements, the individual buyers taste etc and all of this affects price. It's not like buying a pair of shoes, there's not 10 pairs there all in different sizes but aside from that all the same. So I'd view the advertised price as a guide. I'd acknowledge that builders have to make a bit of noise to get people to look into what they have to offer, especially given how tight the competition is for the sellers attention, and I'd assume that whatever I saw wasn't true. It's not that they lie, it's that there's a heap of small print that isn't included. For example I spoke to a large popular (on this forum) builder and asked them about building in my small wheatbelt (earthquake requirements) town - sure they could, sure they could build me their $172k house... but I'd need to add $70k for site works, I'd only get X amount of driveway, I'd need to upgrade Y and Z if I wanted PQR.... All up it really was a $300k+ build. I spoke to another (small boutique custom) builder who asked what our budget was, tailor designed a solution for us, and hasn't dicked us around on price for any element - if we want something non standard he tells us "that is going to cost you X" and aside from that he's just told us the allowances for things and sent us to his suppliers. Refreshingly honest compared to the first builder. We are probably paying a little more but I'm not irritated every time I ask about something, let alone having to do variations to contract (with fees) for asinine little things like an extra power point or two over the original quoted number. The larger builder's tactics seem very common in this game - put the cheapest price you can on something and then ask for a thousand dollars here, a couple there to 'upgrade' everything to be close to what the rest consider normal. Chuck a splashy add over the top about airconditioning or whatever and draw the crowd in with it. (It's cheaper and easy enough to organise your own airconditioning after the house is built, most of the package deals you can do yourself later for less - carpets, aircon, tiling/wood floors even taps and some of the kitchen appliances.) Hunt about, find a builder that does business the way you like. Someone near you will work the way you want. You might find a boutique builder better if you want to make a lot of alterations/have something that is less standard or is on a very firm budget. A lot of builders will design something for you without a huge architect's fee - they just get a draftsperson to draw up the plans instead. Oh. And... if your builder won't give you a ball park quote BEFORE you pay a design deposit... ask yourself why they won't. Mine gave me a fairly solid ball park number (a $20k range) and then once I paid the deposit and we went to contract stage it was about right. They should be able to tell you within a 5% guesstimate. Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 6Sep 27, 2013 9:59 pm snuck Hunt about, find a builder that does business the way you like. Someone near you will work the way you want. You might find a boutique builder better if you want to make a lot of alterations/have something that is less standard or is on a very firm budget. A lot of builders will design something for you without a huge architect's fee - they just get a draftsperson to draw up the plans instead. Oh. And... if your builder won't give you a ball park quote BEFORE you pay a design deposit... ask yourself why they won't. Mine gave me a fairly solid ball park number (a $20k range) and then once I paid the deposit and we went to contract stage it was about right. They should be able to tell you within a 5% guesstimate. Great post! You also describe perfectly the approach I took. One project-home builder was reasonably professional and gave me a printed estimate, although I had to wait a week. Did not have to pay a cent. Another smaller project-home builder wanted me to pay $3000 just for a tender. Funny how after I walked away they offered to provide the tender at no charge. In the end I found a small custom builder after someone pointed me their way on this forum. They drew up a custom design for my block. It took about 4 weeks to get a price, but to be fair to them, they were having a busy time and I didn't have to pay for the quote. Build thread: here Land Nov 12, Contract 6/07/13, Consent 15/08/13, Start 20/09/13, Slab 25/09/13, Frame 4/10/13, Brick 21/10/13, Roof 2/11/13, Lock-up 17/12/13, Handover 3/3/14 Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 7Sep 27, 2013 10:48 pm Another thing that is springing to mind is: different cultures do things differently. I know after years of working in IT project management with people from all over the world that (excuse some generalisations here - these are examples that may not apply to specific people you know) for example Indian people might say 'yes yes' when they mean they understand what you are asking for, not that they are saying yes they will do it. Or that people from China might indicate in a round about way they will do something but it might never get done - they just didn't want to say no. Or that people from Germany seem really brusque but it's actually just the sentence structure that doesn't translate into english smoothly/relaxed. All three of these language differences can cause real head aches in managing a project - maybe there's a gap in your reading of a situation or the way you are communicating. This isn't your fault or a criticism of you - just a thought of what might be contributing to the issue. Between that and crappy building sales tactics you might be getting burnt a bit and if you think this is the case you might do well to take a solid native english speaker who has built before along with you to help you when talking to the building companies. I know that there's a lot of verbal dancing and to and fro well before I got even close to signing a contract or paying a deposit. Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 8Sep 28, 2013 10:07 am Also H&L packages offered on those website with all the inclusions usually refer to turn key packages. turn key packages gives u everything that is standard as inclusions plus extras and also blinds, driveway, landscapes, letterbox, clothesline, fencing... they are usually for new estates as well that may be not where u want to move to.... u just have to read all the fine prints on those websites and understand the differences. Did u end up staying with the second builder? Second Build, this time with Carlisle 2016, can't wait! Beckham: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=67280 Canterbury: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=81175 Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 9Oct 02, 2013 2:53 pm Hi guys, Thanks for kind advise. I was busy to find a builder, because we were cancelled our pre-concept agreement by the second builder. Our land is in new estate and it was house and land package at the first time, luckily we could keep the land even though we cancelled our first contract. If they explained price discrepancy and inclusions difference are from more commission by land developer, we would accept it. I still don’t understand why they said it is human error which makes them unreliable. As I explained, it was same plan as on ad, so there is no reason for price difference or providing more inclusions. If those depend on ability of sales rep, maybe we chose wrong person. If I’m buying a chocolate, I know price can be different depends on where you buy it. (shop, duty free, internet, etc…) However, I’m building a house, I should be provided a house for same price with same inclusions with others who are building a house in same estate with the builder. (Of course, if it’s only same time) At least, they shouldn’t let us know if they don’t! Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 10Oct 02, 2013 10:47 pm Young, I think you need to look VERY closely at those newspaper / internet adds. There's ALWAYS a bunch of tiny print exclusions - ground works, any change to any part of the house blah blah blah. The adds are rarely what you can build the house for, and that's assuming that they are building without changes. Every block is different, the price of items goes up and down (as does labour) etc. If you are expecting to get a set price like it's a bottle of milk in a Coles add I suspect you are going to be disappointed again and again. As soon as you want to include anything not in the add (paint, flooring, move this wall a little here or that window a smidge there) etc you add cost. It might not actually cost more in obvious ways but your unique plans are changed and that means that someone has to draw your unique plans up and make sure it gets done for you just how you ask it. That adds cost. Basically assume every house is a custom build to some extent under this because every block is different, every council has different requirements and no two houses will be the same. That's before you pick tiles and laminates and doors.... That adds more complexity again. It just isn't realistic in Australia I believe to rip an add out of the paper, walk in, write a cheque, say "I will have that one there" and walk out without there being a change in price. Let us know if you find a builder who will do that - ESPECIALLY at the bottom end of the price brackets - we'd all love to find that builder! Good luck on your hunt. Re: How can I trust builders? (sorry long story...) 11Oct 07, 2013 1:49 pm Hi Snuck, Thanks for kind advise. May be I did wrong explain. I totally understand that house price can be changed by options and modification of floor plan. What I meant was default price with no changes and options should be same for everyone. I received variation lists from previous builders, variation starts with default price then they add and off prices depend on changes and options. I think people who build same houses should be started from same default price (exclude site work cost, I know it depends on condition of land), but my previous builders didn’t. I’m still at ‘shopping’ stage. My partner and I got some knowledge through experiences, so we are now more relaxed and confident to find the builder who satisfies us. We decided not to rush. We extended expected date of moving to next Christmas. I hope I can share good experience soon. 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