Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jul 29, 2013 7:17 pm HI guys
We are finally getting started on the extension to our deck and new pergola this week . Chippie starts on Thursday . Our backyard faces pretty much due North - and we have glass french doors that let beautiful winter sun shine through - with slightly deeper eave that blocks out the bulk of summer sun. I bought our house specifically because it had a north facing yard that let lots of light in to our living areas, so the last thing I want to do is block it all out. But.... we want a pergola to get more use out of the deck in summer. So, with the pergola (which will be built directly continuing north from the eave above the french doors), I want to have it built to ensure that I can retain as much winter sun as possible. At this stage, we will keep it 'open' roof. We will let it sit for the rest of winter and a summer season and see what kind of shading it will require in the long term. We may eventually put up some clear laserlite with some shading under it (or over it) to give some winter shelter but still let sun through - but this is all TBC. My initial concern is simply with the placement of the beams and rafters with a view to capturing as much winter sun as possible. What do I need to do to ensure maximum light still comes through in winter? I imagine building it as high as possible would be one thing? To let winter sun in underneath when sun is at lowest? (It will be flat-roofed and I don't really want to angle it up - prefer the flat look). Chippie said he would be placing rafters 900mm apart (the timber running from back of house - ie south-north - With no east-west cross beams (excuse my lack of correct terminology). I am concerned that having these beams so close together may give off too much shading during winter months? Would I be best to have these as few and far between as possible?? And/Or as narrow as possible (height wise)? Any tips or advice before we officially get going on this? Thanks in advance, HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 2Jul 29, 2013 7:27 pm There is a diagram here to show you the best height in relation to the height of the windows http://www.anewhouse.com.au/2012/01/31/ ... n-windows/ The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 3Jul 29, 2013 8:23 pm Hi Bashworth Thanks for that. And I guess that is what we have now (ie, wider eaves approx. 45% the height of the glass doors etc). And excuse me for my absolute ignorance on this subject, but I can't work out what the info you have provided means in terms of shading from a pergola that will extend approx. 4m out from the glass doors. Midday sun etc won't matter so much as the sun light will be in line with the north/south beams. But it is the morning, afternoon sun that will start to get blocked as it travels west and shades into these beams. So I'd just like to know how to minimise the shading - into the house through the glass AND onto the deck itself. Is it to have fewer beams? Higher beams? (Or lower?), Narrower beams (depth, not width)? Sorry if this info is in the link you attached.... like I said..... and just not sure how to apply it beyond the diagram itself. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 4Jul 29, 2013 9:39 pm Basically if you are going to put a roof on for a 4m wide pergola you are going to cut out more than half of the sun into the house in winter. No roof and the sun will be going through the north-south beams at noon but a couple of hours either side of noon it will be that low it will be going through the uprights. rather than the roof beams. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 5Jul 29, 2013 9:59 pm Hi again, No roof on at this stage - need some thinking time on that one. So when you say 'uprights' are you referring to the posts and saying it will come in under the beams?? Or do you mean the actual upright beams across the top - therefore saying that it will be shaded? If inave fewer beams (spaced as wide apart as possible) will this help? Will raising the entire roof higher will this help (or lower?). What can I do to maximise entry of sun through the frame of pergola? Thanks.... HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 6Jul 29, 2013 10:08 pm uprights = posts Higher roof is better but to get fair amount of sun into the house with a 4m roofed pergola it would need to be at least 4m high. Unroofed if you keep the north south beams 900-1000mm apart its not going to cause too much restriction to the sun The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 7Jul 29, 2013 10:26 pm For the sake of this discussion, let's assume unroofed.
Chippie is quoting beams at 900mm apart so I just wanted to check if I should push for wider. Might ask for 1m. bashworth Higher roof is better but to get fair amount of sun into the house with a 4m roofed pergola it would need to be at least 4m high. Unroofed if you keep the north south beams 900-1000mm apart its not going to cause too much restriction to the sun So if unroofed - are you saying height shouldn't matter too much if beams are 900-1000 apart?? Or still only if 4m high? At this stage - it was going to attach to existing eave which I think is approx. 2.7m high But I could see if he can go higher and go back into roofline?? It's really important to me to try to retain as much sun as possible - hence my original question about what I can ask the builder to do to help that end. I'd hate to miss the opportunity to make any possible minor changes that could make quite a bit of difference to the outcome. Appreciate your help - as always - bashworth. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 8Jul 29, 2013 10:38 pm Hi Anything out more than 1 meter from the windows will cast a shadow. Keeping the rafters as far apart as possible will help to let in the most winter sun. If you put Laserlight on top it might become unbearably hot in summer so be careful. It is a shame to lose the lovely winter sunshine considering that one reason you bought the house was because you liked the sun in through the windows, could you just use a large umbrella type shade in summer and then put it away for winter. To see how much shade you will create with the pergola tie a piece of cardboard 190mm wide (the size of your rafters) on to the end of a broom then go outside, morning,noon and afternoon and hold the cardboard at the distance and height that the pergola will be built and see exactly what the shadow will be at this time of year. I would build the deck and not the pergola but that is because I love the winter sun to warm my living areas. Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 9Jul 30, 2013 9:56 am Thank you for your input dreamin . I know what you are saying - and they are all my concerns, but after many sleepless nights and asking anyone and everyone I know who has a pergola (esp over a north face), I 'think' I have concluded that when all is weighed up, I will get more use out of the area if it has a sense of enclosure above the deck. Whether that be in the form of a totally open pergola, or whether we shade it/cover it somehow in the future - which remains to be seen. Hence trying to build the structure to allow maximum light through from the beginning. If we do put laserlite, we will probably (??) put totally clear on to allow the winter sun through as much as possible. I know this also means letting in the summer sun - which means they can be hot. But again, asking a couple of people with laserlite (one on a western side and one on a northern side), they both say that it is hot, but not unbearable and they get more use out of the space than if it wasn't there. Also, our pergola will be totally open on 3 sides (not enclosed in an alcove or anything like that), so am hoping that will help with airflow. Also, during summer, we would put up some temporary shading over or under the laserlite - some of that bamboo stuff that can be rolled up perhaps. Or shade cloth. Something that we can remove after summer. And in winter, we might even put up some cafe blinds and create a kind of sun room area. Be great to be able to open up the doors and still let the kids out onto the deck in the cooler months. So I think overall, I might need to lose a bit of sun to get more use from the space. But as I said, initially, we just want to build the pergola and will leave it open for the remainder of winter and possibly summer (put up an umbrella or whatever) just to gauge how the light/shading works with it up. Will go from there. I am going to ask the builder to space the rafters (or beams? The ones that will go North-south) at least 1000mm - maybe more. He said in his plan, there won't be any east-west beams (apart from the actual frame of the pergola) and I'd also like to keep it that way if possible. PS - like your idea of the cardboard/broom trick. I have kind of been playing around with the shading as best I can with some makeshift things. I know it will create some shading, but i have to compromise somewhere along the line . Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 10Jul 30, 2013 11:05 am How Hard Can it Be For the sake of this discussion, let's assume unroofed. Chippie is quoting beams at 900mm apart so I just wanted to check if I should push for wider. Might ask for 1m. bashworth Higher roof is better but to get fair amount of sun into the house with a 4m roofed pergola it would need to be at least 4m high. Unroofed if you keep the north south beams 900-1000mm apart its not going to cause too much restriction to the sun So if unroofed - are you saying height shouldn't matter too much if beams are 900-1000 apart?? If unroofed height won't matter. One thing I have used for shade over pergolas is rolls of bamboo fencing. That can spans between the beams and provide a mottled shade in summer. I fixed mine down as my pergola was only 1m wide) but you could roll it up in winter. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 11Jul 30, 2013 11:30 am bashworth How Hard Can it Be For the sake of this discussion, let's assume unroofed. Chippie is quoting beams at 900mm apart so I just wanted to check if I should push for wider. Might ask for 1m. bashworth Higher roof is better but to get fair amount of sun into the house with a 4m roofed pergola it would need to be at least 4m high. Unroofed if you keep the north south beams 900-1000mm apart its not going to cause too much restriction to the sun So if unroofed - are you saying height shouldn't matter too much if beams are 900-1000 apart?? If unroofed height won't matter. One thing I have used for shade over pergolas is rolls of bamboo fencing. That can spans between the beams and provide a mottled shade in summer. I fixed mine down as my pergola was only 1m wide) but you could roll it up in winter. Exactly what we had in mind Bashworth. Great minds.... . And I love dappled shade. We would either loosely fix it to the top over the laserlite - or try to have it set up like a roller blind underneath if that is possible (I like the idea of underneath so that you can actually see it, but I dare say having it on top of the laserlite might help reduce the heat that actually gets through the laserlite and therefore trapped in summer. Again, compromise . Beautiful sunny day here in Melbs, so have just been out playing around with some planks of wood/shading (nearly fell through my rotting outdoor setting - look forward to upgrading those for my new deck/pergola ). Glad to hear height won't matter too much as I think given our house extension is a flat roof extension, there may be limits to how this will connect if we go higher than the existing eave - so may have to stick to the original plan of attaching it to the current fascia (which is, as previously thought, 2.7m off deck height). But I do think that spacing north/south beams as far apart as possible will make a difference in the mornings and afternoons. As well as keeping them as narrow as possible. Hopefully the sun will stay out most of the day so that I can re-check in the afternoon. I'm sure it will all work out OK in the end. Just quite excited that it is all finally happening, and trying to make sure that we do the best we can from the start to get this right to avoid some 'should have done it this way' after it's finished. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... question.... 12Jul 30, 2013 5:28 pm Back to add... feeling much more confident in our decision now. Chippie confirmed he is coming on Thursday - and we had a chat about the rafters (beams?) also. He is going to try and make them more like 1000-1200mm apart. He said the only difference is that when/if I put any kind of roof on, I will have to use a wider batten for a bit more strength/support given the rafters are a bit further apart. So it's all good - and given I often suffer from making any decision easily or with much confidence, I am thrilled that we have finally bitten the bullet and moved forward with an actual decision. We'll now just have to live with, and work around the consequences of it. But as they say - any decision is better than no decision . But in the end, regardless of how much of my blessed sun and heat and light that I may/may not lose, I also feel confident that we'll get so much more use out of the space once it's fully set up for maximum use (ie shaded for summer and possibly closed in for winter). I can't wait. Hopefully we will use this as the ball setting in motion and keep the momentum to flow onto a few other things we want doing (new driveway/gates/front fence, for eg). Thanks for all your help guys = special mention to Bashworth who often comes to my rescue . Cheers. Will keep you posted. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 13Aug 02, 2013 11:06 pm Hi guys.... Finally got started today.... Then the rain set in and Chippie packed up for the day (couldn't blame him, it was freezing today - and raining). There has been a bit of confusion and we were going to originally slope the pergola slightly back towards the house so that rain would run off into existing gutter - if/when we decide to roof it. Then, the timber guy turns up (this is after the chippie had been to collect timber because he said there was already confusion and mistakes with the timber (frown). Then, while timber guy is still here - they call me out to talk me into sloping roof away from the house - trying to tell me it's because existing gutter will not cope. But I can't help but think it has more to do with either timber issues (??) or building issues (??). I don't really want an angled pergola - i want a flat pergola if possible. Between the 3 of them they were all varying on how much slope there would be. But all besides the point.... (kind of). My question is that if I tell them that I don't want any slope and want the pergoa built flat - will I be able to create a pitch down the track in order to install laserlite?? When I was at the hardware store sussing out laserlite, I wasn't particularly discussing pitch - but I do recall the guy saying something about just adding a noggin (?) to raise it at one end. Does this sound feasible? I much rather the look of a flat pergoa than a sloped pergola - but don't want to shoot myself in the foot either. Or... Will the slope (if I go ahead with slope) be hardly visible over a distance of approx 3.5m. Need to work this out so I can tell him when he comes back on Monday morning whether to slope it or keep it flat. And generally just a bit miffed what the underlying issue was today?? Thanks for any help. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 14Aug 03, 2013 7:07 pm There is a real risk of overflowing the gutter. With the size of the pergola you are talking about you are practically doubling the area drained by the gutter. You are effectively making a high risk roof situation (see http://www.anewhouse.com.au/2012/12/roof-choice-risk/) The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 15Aug 03, 2013 9:02 pm Hi again bashworth.... I appreciate that. And sloping the other direction - per se - doesn't bother me. But it is good to know that sloping other direction (whatever their underlying reason was) is the right way to go. It was more the visual angle of the slope that I was trying to avoid. But I have spoken to builder again, he has assured me that I won't notice the slope. So all good - and we will slope away from house. Will just need to put gutter on if we do roof. Thank you so much. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 16Aug 03, 2013 10:35 pm HHCIB, 3.5m of polycarbonate sheeting would require about 305mm of fall so you can't just put a batten under one end. I'm actually in exactly the same situation as yourself. We built our house to capture the northern sun and it is beautiful at the moment with all the sun, but I need to build a pergola to give some extra shelter to our alfresco and now worry that I'm going to cut out that sun. I wanted a flat pergola but realised that I was going to have to build it with a pitch in order to use the polycarbonate sheeting. I've stood out in my back yard with a broom held up at different heights to see how much differing height pergolas will cut the light. Fortunately for us we are pitching of a double storey wall so height is not a limitation. I can get ours high enough that the winter sun will still get underneath, but the late spring and early autumn sun is still limited. Hope it all goes well for you. Accessible Carpentry & Cabinets accessiblecarpentry@gmail.com accessiblecarpentry.com.au https://www.facebook.com/pages/Accessible-Carpentry-Cabinets/583314911709039 Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 17Aug 08, 2013 8:35 pm Yes chippy that's the thing.... the late spring/early autumn sun being cut off from where the roof line sits! Our has been finished a couple of days now, but between me working and miserable, dull days, I haven't had a chance to test how it affect the sunlight. Am off tomorrow and all weekend so fingers crossed we get some sunshine and I get to see how it will affect the light coming through into the house (for this time of year). Oh - and builder kind of stuffed up (if you ask me) - he went and put the rafters at 900mm apart which was his original plan, but I wanted wider. I think he 'forgot' then tried to tell me I asked for them narrower (hmmmmmmmm - I don't think so). So am a bit disappointed that I have more beams than I wanted and it will definitely create more shading. But it's done now. Good luck with yours too. HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 18Aug 09, 2013 9:34 pm How Hard Can it Be Yes chippy that's the thing.... the late spring/early autumn sun being cut off from where Oh - and builder kind of stuffed up (if you ask me) - he went and put the rafters at 900mm apart which was his original plan, but I wanted wider. I think he 'forgot' then tried to tell me I asked for them narrower (hmmmmmmmm - I don't think so). So am a bit disappointed that I have more beams than I wanted and it will definitely create more shading. But it's done now. Good luck with yours too. HHCIB Hi HHCIB, Look at this site about providing slanted louvres across your pergola. It will tell you the size of the angle you need for your region or tell you how to work it out. http://www.yourhome.gov.au/technical/fs44.html This is what I will be doing with my pergola. I am only going to put them a metre or so out to protect the house from the summer sun. Cheers, Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 19Aug 10, 2013 8:35 am Hi TTs Thanks for that . I appreciate you taking the time to post the link for me. I have actually come across that (numerous times) during my 'research' . My only issue is - and I'm sure it's my inability to fully grasp the concept..... but..... with the fixed slanted louvre system, my understanding is that it would only let in the winter sun when it's at its lowest (or whatever angle you have it set at), but would pretty much (gradually) block out more and more other sun - from spring through to autumn, for eg, through to fully blocking out mid summer (which is sun we want blocked). So for me, the slanted louvres wouldn't work either. They would be fine for the purpose you propose - ie, 1m or so from the house, just to block that high summer sun - but still let the low winter sun in. But we already have wide eaves which does the trick in that regard. It is more shelter for the depth of our pergola that I am pondering. Short of a movable louvre system - there is not going to be one solution that suits my needs - summer sun out - ALL other sun in . I think we will need to put up some kind of 'temporary' blind/shading for summer. That will solve the summer sun. Our next dilemma is keeping out the weather (rain, wind etc) - we also want some protection to be able to sit outside on warmer, rainy days. Hence looking at some laserlite????????? Our pergola is complete, so now we just have to sit with it for a few months and figure out where to from here with the shading etc. But really, given there are actually real problems in the world, a minor dilemma over shading for my pergola really isn't worth losing sleep over (but I still do ). HHCIB Re: Pergola being built this week.... ANOTHER question.... 20Aug 10, 2013 9:29 am Would love to see some pics. Is there a building permit? RU in Victoria? What is the value of the building contract? 1 6862 About a year ago, I embarked on a DIY project to construct an outdoor Pergola, which measures approximately 5.2 meters by 4.0… 0 29653 i think option 2 is much better with easy access to the garden without having to walk through the new sunroom which makes it a better room for guests and TV .a simple… 2 8283 |