Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jul 03, 2013 2:22 pm Hi
My Partner and I are nearly at the end of our build but however have reached a bit of a problem with the connection of our sewerage/waste water. I am just seeking some advice and opinions for the following Our contract states that our waste water/sewerage should be a gravity fed system but the plumber did not check the sewer main level prior to laying the pipes & pouring the slab & now as they have gone to connect the 2 have realised that the main is sitting higher than the house pipe. We now will need to sit down to work out a resolution for what we are going to do. Without ripping the slab apart we will now need a pressure pump system installed to feed the waste to the main. The builder has offered to supply and maintain the system for a period of time we are in the house - but not for whoever may be in there next. - is this reasonable? What happens if the builder goes bust in a years time? Will the system decrease value or deter to my house when I live in an area where all houses have a Gravity System straight to the main. Is it unreasonable to ask for $$ for compensation for this mess up? & If so how would you go about working that out? ta Han Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 2Jul 03, 2013 3:17 pm hannijoy Our contract states that our waste water/sewerage should be a gravity fed system but the builder did not check the sewer main level prior to laying the pipes & pouring the slab & now as they have gone to connect the 2 have realised that the main is sitting higher than the house pipe. The pipework should have been laid by a plumber, not the builder. The sewer pipe must have a minimum 1:60 fall. The main sewer pipe should lay a lot deeper than the house slab. I find the situation you describe to be 'strange' to say the least. You should seek the advice of the regulatory plumbing body in your State in regards to regulations etc so that you are able to best communicate with the builder. The builder will be very anxious to have this fixed if he hasn't employed a plumber to lay the pipes. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 3Jul 03, 2013 3:48 pm Yes sorry, It was a plumber who had laid the pipes. We are on a sloping block with the sewer main running down the back of the block at the highest part. Looking at it all now it seems the house should have probably been built up - but I would have also thought that when going through site costs/tests & putting plans through council if this was necessary we would have been notified before we even started building :/ Apparently the plumber did lay the house pipes as high as he could go. Thanks for your imput. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 4Jul 03, 2013 4:16 pm Who did building design? is not designer's job to know where the sewer is and to set levels accordingly? I had a similar case There was 5K PS allowance for drainage and the builder messed up and then had to dig up the road to get the fall. It cost 20K and he charged the owner. Owner paid under duress but then went to VCAT to recover. It went to mediation where it settled for much less than it should have because owner lost health over it and could not continue. But it was a victory because builder had to pay a refund. The best problems are problems avoided, moral of the story? pay for expert advice and you will sleep easier. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 5Jul 04, 2013 9:57 am From what you have written, it seems that the builder has accepted liability for the problem. I don't think that the proposed solution from your contractor is satisfactory as it will mean a loss of resale value to you down the track. Locating the sewer connection point and the invert level is a very basic part of the plumber's job and, unless I am missing something, the liability to fix the problem ****** with your contractor. By fix I mean in accordance with the documentation that you and the building company agreed on and signed and I presume that means a gravity fed sewer connection that leaves your ownership of the project unencumbered. Have you consulted with council as to their requirements? I can't see the Council approving a non gravity fed connection. Usually there is a submission made to Council by the plumbing sub contractor for approval before work commences. I would investigate further as this is a very basic error on the builder's part. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 6Jul 04, 2013 11:01 am Hi How to studio OP said" Apparently the plumber did lay the house pipes as high as he could go." As far as I can see this is purely design negligence. Designer sets the floor levels of the house having regard to topography and the available services. Is this not what professional designers are trained to do? What is the plumber supposed to do? I often come across this problem in disputes where tradie is blamed for problems on site but how is a tradie who dropped out of school in year ten to do plumbing going to do the job that professional building designers with degrees and diplomas are supposed to do before him? Is anyone seriously suggesting that our house design should be left to tradies? I have just recently given expert evidence in a similar dispute and my client(a tradie) won payment. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 7Jul 25, 2013 2:22 pm Thanks for the advice Building Expert and I certainly don't want to tread on any toes here. I am not privy to all the contract and documented stuff that is involved but there is an application and approval process from council as to the invert level of their sewer and this may be the crucial point. If the project is a D&C as most are, then surely it's the contractor's responsibility. If the design levels of the floor are the problem then the invert levels provided by the council wouldn't have worked as you suggested, and as this is known before the build starts, the building should have been re-designed to accommodate the connection point (responsibility depends on the contract). My contention is that the owner shouldn't be wearing the extra cost nor should they accept a solution that would disadvantage them later. As an aside, I have never come across a dumb plumber. They do a demanding job and are usually ahead of the game. I always value their advice. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 8Mar 25, 2014 7:22 am Quote: As an aside, I have never come across a dumb plumber Hmmm, then you need to get out more. If you met some of the knuckleheads that I've had to deal with over the ( 35+ ) years I've been in the building industry then you would change your mind ! I agree with you though that this could have easily been avoided at the design stage and it should also have been checked at the building pre-start stage where the builder checks for things like this. Sometimes we have had Sydney Water do a peg-out to determine the invert levels prior to the commencement of building. We raised the ground floor 200mm as a result on one job. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 9Mar 25, 2014 8:18 am The thread is over 7 months old now, it would be good to know what eventuated for the possible benefit of others. As pointed out by building-expert and Stewie D, it comes back to the design stage and the builder's checks. The amount of level deficiency wasn't stated or whether the finished slab levels were checked against the designer's levels. There have been some recent posts about slab heights not matching the plans. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 11Mar 25, 2014 8:46 am Your thread still had good info for others. My last post was directed towards others. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 12Mar 25, 2014 10:37 am Stewie D Hmmm, then you need to get out more. If you met some of the knuckleheads that I've had to deal with over the ( 35+ ) years I've been in the building industry then you would change your mind ! x 2. The knucklehead factor is due more to their attitude than their IQ level, IMHO. Trade work is not rocket science. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 13Mar 25, 2014 10:45 am I did pre final inspection yesterday in Epping and found that the slab was set about 200mmm lower than the design level. It does affect surface drainage on one side but lucky for the owner the problem can be overcome because of the sloping block, however builder has no excuse. It would have been far worse drainage problem had it been 200mm lower on a flat site, and I have seen plenty of those. A pre slab inspection would have picked up the level discrepancy, had it been done. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 14Mar 25, 2014 11:04 am Was the inspection for the house in this thread? It appears that wrong slab heights are not rare. Absolutely amazing! 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 15Mar 25, 2014 11:22 am I think part of the problem is that in a lot of cases the properties do not get a really good site survey done by a land surveyor with all ground levels shown and any dominant features. First port of call for any of my jobs and necessary for most local councils when you lodge a DA. Any subsequent proposed floor, roof, and ground levels are noted on my plans. Makes it easy for the client, the council and the builder ( therefore the plumber and/or drainlayer ) to see exactly what heights are where on site for all necessary parts of the build. Stewie Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 16Mar 25, 2014 12:59 pm SaveH2O Was the inspection for the house in this thread? It appears that wrong slab heights are not rare. Absolutely amazing! Owner found me on this forum but I don't think he had a thread. I think Stewie's point is well made about poor site surveys but on this site there was a benchmark and a floor level designated on plan. It seems that the concrete contractor just did what was easier and cheaper for him and builder's supervisor was either in blissful ignorance or did not care. Building Inspector for mandatory slab inspection did not care either. It raises a question about quality control, ooops what's that? Some years ago I was a successful tenderer for a netball pavilion extension and before I got the job I had to furnish details of my quality control system to the council. All OK. I completed demolition and prepared a slab and asked for inspection and then, council said, ooops we forgot to take out building permit. Could write a book. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 18Mar 25, 2014 2:35 pm Stewie D Classic ! Stewie Forgot to mention, that was the fastest council issued building permit in history, happened in 1 day. Feel pity for many poor souls there waiting months for council permits, imagine council had to get in line and wait 3 months for their own permit, I would have been just sitting there collecting delay costs. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 19Mar 25, 2014 2:54 pm building-expert Who did building design? is not designer's job to know where the sewer is and to set levels accordingly? I had a similar case There was 5K PS allowance for drainage and the builder messed up and then had to dig up the road to get the fall. It cost 20K and he charged the owner. Owner paid under duress but then went to VCAT to recover. It went to mediation where it settled for much less than it should have because owner lost health over it and could not continue. But it was a victory because builder had to pay a refund. The best problems are problems avoided, moral of the story? pay for expert advice and you will sleep easier. its funny how stressed people get over building. as a builder/building inspector, I should of lost my health many time over Re: Sewer Problem - Breach of Contract? 20Mar 26, 2014 2:17 pm SaveH2O Was the inspection for the house in this thread? It appears that wrong slab heights are not rare. Absolutely amazing! Would you be able to tell where in the engineering plan does it state the height of the land and the slab? Thanks!! I believe this is correct. 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