Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jun 24, 2013 9:19 am I have been a long time critic of Building Commission not only because of my own unsatisfactory experience with it and the dozens of my clients that have been let down by Building Commission inspectors but also because it is responsible for Guide to Standards and Tolerances that effectively condones defects and poor workmanship. For those that are interested I have a blog about defective brickwork that is passed off as complying with the guide http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog/g ... s-useless/ Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 2Jun 24, 2013 11:19 am It's the same the world over. In the US there are regularly homes that fall down spectacularly even though they have been passed by the building inspectors. It seems the biggest problem with standards, is they are written by builders who have political clout, and who have a financial interest in those standards being as low as possible. I guess I should add to the other side of the story, that there is a fine line between standards that can be cost effectively met and standards that would drive the price of a home so far out of reach of most buyers. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 3Jun 24, 2013 12:04 pm The Guide to Standards and Tolerances is just that...a guide. The guidelines are sourced from the BCA and Australian Standards. Australian Standards are produced by Standards Australia, a private company. Australian Standards have no legal standing unless mandated or used in a contract. The guide is a one stop reference but it should reference the source. Many do not understand that it is a guide. The BCA can 'call up' "Deemed to Satisfy" (DTS) standards referenced by the BCA and the Tolerences and Standards guide reflects the most lenient. Rather than accepting Standards that can permit poor outcomes, bodies like the Building Commission should exercise their professional responsibility and social conscious by bringing about changes to various standards rather than producing a guide that gives tacit endorsement to poor workmanship. There is however a conflict in that Standards Australia are represented on most regulatory bodies. Another guide that has no legal standing is the plumbing Handbook SAA HB39.The Handbook lists a number of Australian Standards and was introduced as a quick reference guide. It is widely referenced on websites as being regulatory whereas the standards are what should be referenced. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 4Jun 24, 2013 5:48 pm I think rogerinaus makes two very good points Firstly we have seen undue influence exercised by builders to the point that the regulator (BC) not only does not enforce the law but is also compromised by coming too close in contact with the builders it is supposed to regulate (sports boxes at events and social functions) Secondly, yes you cannot raise standards without raising the cost because in the end the quality is function of price but that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about reasonable skill and care that is missing. In the example of brick wall that I have put up on my blog, all that was required was a little more care. No one will convince me that a skilled bricklayer cannot do better. Little more care does not cost money. The fact that the builder and his supervisor can walk past that wall and hide behind Guide to Standards and Tolerances is a testament to our failed building control. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 5Jul 02, 2013 10:55 pm Consumer protection across the board is absolute crap in Australia for anything worth more than a few hundred dollars. Motor vehicles for example, even with the new changes to Australian Consumer Law the consumer has stuff all rights if they get a lemon vehicle. I'm finding from reading this site and talking to people the whole building industry is filled with error and innacuracy. Quality is hard to come by and expensive to purchase. But I think accuracy in measurement and specification adherenace should be free. It just isn't that difficult. Everyone seems to have to accept some level of "tolerance". Why should we. Millimetre rulers and tape measures are pretty cheap to buy and easy to use. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 6Jul 03, 2013 7:35 am Reasonable tolerances are necessary and OK Obviously you would not expect house frames to be put together with wood furniture tolerances. Cutting and fitting timber to 1/16th inch tolerance takes four times as long as cutting it to 1/8th inch We all know that kiln fired bricks vary in dimensions, that's why you have got to have tolerances but it is not good enough to say that crap brickwork is OK because Guide to Standards and Tolerances allows perpends 10mm plus or minus 5mm without considering whether there has been skill and care applied. I have seen brickwork that exceeded tolerance for perpends but looked good because there was skill and care and consistency. The missing ingredients in virtually all building disputes regarding quality are skill and care (and pride in what they do) The essential elements of quality in workmanship are: skill plus care plus consistency plus adherence to the minimum or agreed standard The quality test? Mladichek Law No2 "If it looks wrong it is" The remedy test? "would builder have it in his house?" If the answer is no, remedy is demolition and rebuilding. anyone care to comment? Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 9Jul 10, 2013 11:29 am I disagree with you CC101 The guide is meant to be just a guide but it is not, it's a "benchmark of defects" Benchmark is a standard. See below: "Why has HIA developed the Guide? HIA developed a Guide to Standards & Tolerances almost two decades ago, in an attempt to alleviate the wide divergence of opinions being expressed by claims inspectors employed by the Housing Guarantee Fund Limited (HGFL) in Victoria. The determination of what was a reasonable defect and what was beyond the builder’s responsibility were the main drivers for a benchmark of defects to be developed. After 2 years of operation the document became the primary source of what was considered acceptable in the dispute claims and settlement process in Victoria. In 1995, the Victorian Building (Control) Commission assumed responsibilities of the HGFL. The Commission adopted the HGFL’s A Guide to Standards and Tolerances 1992, reproducing it with their badge. This version of the guide was used by the Commission’s domestic inspectors as well as private insurers when assessing claims". The guide is used by builders as a benchmark to hide behind defective workmanship Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 10Jul 10, 2013 2:47 pm The situation described by building-expert is what happens when guides are published as a short cut to the proper referencing of the applicable standards. The publishing of such guidelines is an indictment on the standards often multi cross referencing other standard's manuals and the high cost of those manuals. While such guidelines offer a simple one stop solution, they are a guide only unless the guides/handbooks have been cited in legislation. There are many guides/guidelines published by regulatory bodies but they don't always contain accurate or up to date information. I had a situation last year on a forum thread where I gave advice to the OP based on what I had previously been told by the Victorian Plumbing Industry Commission. The advice coincided with information given in a Vic PIC Technical Solution Sheet (guideline) published on the Vic PIC website. As it turned out, that information was wrong in several instances. It was compounded by the OP and myself being given further conflicting information by two different persons at the PIC when trying to clarify matters, their confusion caused by the published PIC guidelines. A thorough search of the standards uncovered the facts I needed - and a host of bad or non existent standards but that is another story. One quick reference guide, the plumbing handbook SAA HB39 1997, published by Standards Australia and introduced as a quick reference guide to compliment AS3500, drew together a number of Australian Standards and other relevant standards regarding the construction of a complete metal roof and⁄or wall system. The guide ceased to be published by Standards Australia in 2004 yet remains on sale. No replacement has yet being published. It is still widely referenced by plumbers and on various manufacturing and plumbing websites. It was also referenced at many tribunal hearings. Being published by Standards Australia led many to believe that it was a standards booklet but it was never cited in legislation. Even the BCA was fooled as per the BCA 96 Volume 2 (since revised) regarding roof drainage, flashings, insulation and cappings that stated that it should be consulted in relation to SAA HB39-1997. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 11Jul 10, 2013 6:32 pm Great observation by SaveH2O The point that is missed by everybody including the BC is that Guide to Standards and Tolerances cannot apply to anything. Why? Here why: BC states in the guide: "These findings highlight the importance of this Guide to Standards and Tolerances publication, which is intended to be used by builders and building owners as a convenient reference to the minimum quality of building work expected. The Guide is a valuable tool that will provide guidance for areas of building standards that are not prescribed in legislation, building control and/or policy." but implied warranty of DBCA1995 states (d) the builder warrants that the work will be carried out with reasonable care and skill and will be completed by the date (or within the period) specified by the contract; Reasonable care and skill is the blanket protection covering all of builder's work and it's the law. It leaves no room for the guide (because reasonable care and skill is prescribed in legislation) Reasonable care and skill is the ultimate standard and will override everything else including BCA and Australian Standards. Getting back to the photo of my link in OP you could say that the brickwork is acceptable because it falls within tolerance guides but then it fails reasonable care and skill test. Just to make it clear, it is not enough for work to comply to BCA and the standards, it also must exhibit reasonable care and skill, that is the law The law will and has to prevail. The guide is for dummies. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 12Jul 10, 2013 7:30 pm building-expert but implied warranty of DBCA1995 states (d) the builder warrants that the work will be carried out with reasonable care and skill and will be completed by the date (or within the period) specified by the contract; Reasonable care and skill is the blanket protection covering all of builder's work and it's the law. It leaves no room for the guide (because reasonable care and skill is prescribed in legislation) Reasonable care and skill is the ultimate standard and will override everything else including BCA and Australian Standards. Getting back to the photo of my link in OP you could say that the brickwork is acceptable because it falls within tolerance guides but then it fails reasonable care and skill test. Just to make it clear, it is not enough for work to comply to BCA and the standards, it also must exhibit reasonable care and skill, that is the law The law will and has to prevail. The guide is for dummies. Ah yes, I see your extended view point now and you are right. I was focusing on the guide's acceptance and the need to not ignore standards. Bad workmanship can indeed be within acceptable guidelines and that is wrong but what can be done to rectify it? The brick wall is a great example. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 13Jul 17, 2013 10:02 pm Danois I'll comment: What's the first rule? And is there a third rule? Hi Danois, sorry about delay in reply. Yes there are my other rules 1 Builder is in charge "THERE IS NO EXCUSE" (subject only to prevention) 2 "IF IT LOOKS WRONG IT IS" 3 WOULD YOU EXPECT BETTER FROM TRADESMAN SKILLED IN HIS ART? if the answer is yes it's a breach of warranty and a defect 4 "WOULD A BUILDER HAVE IT IN HIS HOUSE? If the answer is no "demolish and rebuild" Just as incredibly complex technology is concealed under a hood of a car and reduced to simple key start so are incredibly complex building problems reduced to four rules that anyone can follow and will give you a right answer or close to it every time. Cheers Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 15Jul 22, 2013 4:47 pm Poor workmanship is often excused by poor standards as well. The amount of sub standard, poorly designed and often non compliant roof storm water drainage and rainwater tank installations that I come across is deplorable as is the void experienced when homeowners try to seek regulatory help from various regulatory and industry bodies that seem intent on protecting their own interests first. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 16Jul 23, 2013 11:07 am One of the biggest problems and a national shame is the fact that the BCA and the various Australian Standards are not freely available to all in the same way that legislation is. I have met countless builders who did not have BCA, work it out? Let's say that 100,000 copies of BCA are sold annually @ $200 = 20 Million For an outlay of 20 Million everyone who needs to have BCA could have it for free, let's say for 100M BCA+all the standards Given the enormous economic waste it seems to me they could be freely available for a modest government expenditure. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 17Jul 23, 2013 2:12 pm Yep. That then comes back to... Standards Australia is a private company (with a high representation on many committees). This is touched on in the thread below. viewtopic.php?f=35&t=60789 The expensive booklets are revised annually but the changes are included as stapled A4 that can get lost. It would be best if the standards were sold in unbound sections. By doing this, a person could simply buy the sections they need as well as any future updates and clip them into a folder. This would alleviate the need for Joe Public to buy a complete manual with many sections when the references they need are found in one section. For example, why should someone have to buy the full AS/NZS 3500.3:2003 booklet when they only require information about let's say a pumped pit system that covers all of 2 pages in section 9? The booklets are often difficult for tradesmen to understand (and understandably so as many are unnecessarily complicated with difficult mathematical formulae) hence the popularity of quick reference guides, many of which if not all have never been cited in legislation. The BCA often recognises Australian Standards as deemed to satisfy documents. The need for multiple booklets is something that many industry professionals choose to ignore. "Better just phone a mate" often suffices and a cocktail of the BCA and AS standards, some of which may be outdated, ensures. I had a person phone yesterday about problems with a new home (less than 1 year old) that no one would admit were non compliant issues (an all too familiar tale) - except for a plumbing 'expert' who quoted a BCA standard as proof of non compliance. I had to inform the person that the BCA standard was changed on 1st May 2007 but as AS/NZS 3500.3:2003 is recognised as a Deemed To Satisfy (DTS) document by the BCA and the AS has no similar standard to the one formerly legislated by the BCA, even if the BCA standard still applied, the AS DTS standard would cancel the BCA standard. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 18Sep 11, 2013 4:06 pm We are currently in a situation where our builder (who is 10 months late!) sold himself as a "Quality" builder whose experience and quality was beyond many of the volume builders. We viewed several of his properties before signing up and were happy with finishes and attention to detail. We paid a premium for this so called "Quality". There has been minimal site supervision, he has used many Tradespeople that he has never used before, or on his own home which he recently built. He used inexperienced Tradespeople to save and together with no supervision has resulted in an unfinshed home of a standard that we feel is nowhere near what we were sold. We have had our Building Inspector out on 2 occasions which resulted in a 13 page report of unfinshed and defective items. The builder has been given more than ample opportunity to rectify issues but has only done minimal work yet says that the house is ready for Handover. The BACV has to date been of no help as they can't "force" him to meet with us and we have spent a fortune with Solicitors. It seems that we have a lot of Government departments which say that they can do a lot of things, but in practice are useless. As for the Guides and Tolerances, it seems that it is a case of what he can "get away with" rather than "what we paid for". For example, we paid for a prestige car (no snobbery intended) but were given a standard car. Yes, sure it is a car but not the one we paid a premium for. Any advice would be appreciated. The system here in Victoria is a joke. Re: Guide to standards and Tolerances is useless! 19Sep 11, 2013 4:34 pm disgruntled The system here in Victoria is a joke. There are other threads similar to the one below on this forum. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=61277&hilit=building+commission The links below are about the person who was subsequently put in charge. http://www.premier.vic.gov.au/media-cen ... ioner.html http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/build ... 2dnno.html http://www.theage.com.au/national/build ... 2dyw1.html You might also be interested in this group. http://www.bcra.asn.au/ EDITED 12/09/13. Changed threads to links. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Building Standards; Getting It Right! Don't think they are designed for double brick. WA has a particular way of building and unfortunately that's the way a large amount of sills are finished. 3 7014 I believe this is correct. From the picture you can see the power was put in last so the electrician knew where the water was. Really it's a common sense issue more… 4 5162 2 8649 |