Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Mar 16, 2013 9:50 am Hi there, Newbie here, so please bear with me if I'm not doing the right thing. My predicament is: My house didn't pass final council approval due to there not being enough water storage on site for fire fighting purposes. Some background: My home is in a semi rural residental type area on the Sunshine Coast. No town water or sewerage. Council requirements are (copied directly from MCU): Section 4. ASSESSMENT MANAGER CONDITIONS Condition 15. Bushfire Management An on-site water supply available for fire fighting purposes must be provided, having a volume of not less than 20,000 litres. The water may be either: (a) A separate tank (b) A reserve section in the bottom part of the main water supply tank (c) A swimming pool or dam installed immediately upon construction of the home. Condition 21. Water Supply The approved dwelling must be serviced with a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres. Section 8. ADVISORY NOTES Point 5. Rural Water Storage The 20,000 litres required by Condition 15 can be included within the water required in Condition 21 providing is accessible for the purposes of fire fighting at all times and not used for other domestic purposes. • We currently have two 22,500 litre tanks on-site, satisfying Condition 21. (The builder was going to link these tanks together on Monday!) • These tanks are currently separate and not joined in anyway, satisfying Condition 15 (a). • Point 5 of the Advisory Notes clearly states that the fire fighting water requirement can be part of the water supply required for the house, so long as the fire fighting water is not used for domestic purposes. Am I right in thinking that by keeping our two tanks separate, the water requirements of Condition 15 as per Point 5, is taken to be satisfied therefore we should be able to get final council approval? The builder and certifier are saying that we need another 20,000 litres. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 2Mar 16, 2013 10:06 am I am reading it to understand you need 60,000 litres. So you must have 40,000 for your house and 20,000 for fire fighting. And I understand what you are saying your 2 tanks are not connected but then my interpretation of that would be that you have 20,000 for fire fighting and only 20,000 for domestic use and it is stated in condition 21 that you must have 40,000 for domestic use. On my first read of it I definitely thought 60,000 litres was going to be your minimum Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 3Mar 16, 2013 12:14 pm Hi Pellana, Thanks for your quick reply to my post. That is not really the answer I was hoping for, obviously! So I guess my next question here is: Whose responsibility is it for picking these things up? When our council approval came back, provided by the private certifier the builder choose, the builders didn't say anything to us about the 25 conditions outlined in the MCU. Surely it can't be mine, I'm paying the builder to build my home and as I read it, I'm of the opinion that as stated in Point 5 of the Advisory Notes, we can have the 20,000 as a part of the 40,000. Unfortunately this is just another in the incredibly long chain of events that has caused this build to be nearly 12 months over schedule! Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 4Mar 16, 2013 1:03 pm Severely_Frustrated Section 4. ASSESSMENT MANAGER CONDITIONS Condition 15. Bushfire Management An on-site water supply available for fire fighting purposes must be provided, having a volume of not less than 20,000 litres. The water may be either: (a) A separate tank (b) A reserve section in the bottom part of the main water supply tank Condition 21. Water Supply The approved dwelling must be serviced with a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres. Section 8. ADVISORY NOTES Point 5. Rural Water Storage The 20,000 litres required by Condition 15 can be included within the water required in Condition 21 providing is accessible for the purposes of fire fighting at all times and not used for other domestic purposes. • We currently have two 22,500 litre tanks on-site, satisfying Condition 21. (The builder was going to link these tanks together on Monday!) • These tanks are currently separate and not joined in anyway, satisfying Condition 15 (a). • Point 5 of the Advisory Notes clearly states that the fire fighting water requirement can be part of the water supply required for the house, so long as the fire fighting water is not used for domestic purposes. Here is my take on it. When tanks are linked as a balance system, they are considered to be one tank. Your tanks are not linked. Were you to link the tanks and have them plumbed so that the (fire fighting reserve) tank received water that overflowed to the house tank, you would supply the house tank with the best quality water and reserve the B grade water for fire fighting. You would (most probably) also need a bottom balance pipe to satisfy the meaning of one tank. The bottom pipe would naturally be fitted with a (open/close) valve. This would satisfy Condition 21 that states: "The approved dwelling must be serviced with a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres." It would also satisfy Section 8. ADVISORY NOTES Point 5. Rural Water Storage that clearly states: "The 20,000 litres required by Condition 15 can be included within the water required in Condition 21 providing is accessible for the purposes of fire fighting at all times and not used for other domestic purposes." Regardless of this, a 22,500 L house storage capacity is inadequate for your region's rainfall pattern. Another 22,500 litre tank should be the minimum extra capacity that you should be considering. Having 3 tanks would also give you a good settling system that will supply very good quality water provided that you don't use a standard archaic, lower yield harvesting system. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 5Mar 16, 2013 1:35 pm Severely_Frustrated Hi Pellana, Thanks for your quick reply to my post. That is not really the answer I was hoping for, obviously! So I guess my next question here is: Whose responsibility is it for picking these things up? When our council approval came back, provided by the private certifier the builder choose, the builders didn't say anything to us about the 25 conditions outlined in the MCU. Surely it can't be mine, I'm paying the builder to build my home and as I read it, I'm of the opinion that as stated in Point 5 of the Advisory Notes, we can have the 20,000 as a part of the 40,000. Unfortunately this is just another in the incredibly long chain of events that has caused this build to be nearly 12 months over schedule! I can definitely see why you are frustrated. Ultimately whose responsibility is it? Don't know but I do know that ultimately you as the home owner are the one most invested in getting the right outcome. If you feel that you are interpreting the rules correctly I would seek clarification from a planner. I can see how you are saying that point 5 says that the 20,000 can be part of the 40,000 but I would read the rules like this Your house must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use. You must have a minimum of 20,000 litres of water for fire fighting at all times that cannot be used for domestic purposes. The 20,000 litres for fire fighting can be incorporated into the water storage for the dwelling, however it must be within a separate reserve that cannot be used within the house etc. If you were to join the 2 tanks together then you are not meeting condition 15a and given the 2 tanks are joined there will be no ability to stop one of the tanks being used within the house therefore not meeting condition 15b and point 5. Obviously 15c doesn't apply. So if you don't join the 2 tanks together then you aren't meeting condition 21 of having 40,000 litres available for domestic use. Ultimately I have no experience in regards to your situation and can only tell you how I interpret the rules which may be wrong for all I know. As the person most invested in seeing the build completed I would make it my mission to know and understand all the conditions put on your approval and I know it is frustrating and shouldn't be the case but I think that will give you the best peace of mind that everything complies. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 6Mar 16, 2013 1:48 pm As for responsibility of getting it right the following basics may help you: 1 If the builder is responsible for the design and construction of your home then it is his baby because he has to do whatever is required (at his cost) to comply at handover. You need do no more. 2 If the builder is simply building to someone else's design then it's your baby. Your beef then is with whoever you paid to do the (defective) design. You will wear the additional cost of compliance. 3 The only time this becomes a variation if it could not have been reasonably foreseen or regulation change or outside builder's control. Without reviewing you docs I can't be more specific but this will point you in the right direction. Foremost Building Expert in Australia,assisting with building problems/disputes, building stage inspections,pre-contract review advice for peace of mind 200 blogs http://www.buildingexpert.net.au/blog Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 7Mar 16, 2013 2:04 pm Pellana I would read the rules like this Your house must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use. The regulations do not state that that the house must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use. How could this possibly and practically be enforced? The regulations state "The approved dwelling must be serviced with a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres." The regulations also state: "An on-site water supply available for fire fighting purposes must be provided, having a volume of not less than 20,000 litres." 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 8Mar 16, 2013 2:13 pm building-expert As for responsibility of getting it right the following basics may help you: 1 If the builder is responsible for the design and construction of your home then it is his baby because he has to do whatever is required (at his cost) to comply at handover. You need do no more. 2 If the builder is simply building to someone else's design then it's your baby. Your beef then is with whoever you paid to do the (defective) design. You will wear the additional cost of compliance. 3 The only time this becomes a variation if it could not have been reasonably foreseen or regulation change or outside builder's control. Without reviewing you docs I can't be more specific but this will point you in the right direction. Thanks for this information. I am very grateful. The builder came up with the design for our house based on some rough sketches of what we wanted, as well as the soil & contour reports. They designed everything including the 2 x 22,500 water tanks. This was pre council approval, yet since then nothing has been said nor done about it until it failed the final... A search online has brought up the requirements that were specified by the Sunshine Coast Countil for this house in a word document. The requirements are word for word what is in this document, so it can easily be argued that the requirement to have 60,000L was reasonably forseen by the builder. So based on this information that you have provided, would that mean that they have to fix this problem? If that is the case, where can I find this information in a legal sense so that I can advise the builder on Monday? Muchly appreciated but still Severely Frustrated. ----------------------------------------------------------------- Pellana & Save H2O Thank you very much too for your inputs and information. They are all very valuable insights and I really appreciate your time and effort. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 9Mar 16, 2013 2:14 pm SaveH2O What do you mean by: "Having 3 tanks would also give you a good settling system that will supply very good quality water provided that you don't use a standard archaic, lower yield harvesting system."? Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 10Mar 16, 2013 5:44 pm SaveH2O Pellana I would read the rules like this Your house must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use. The regulations do not state that that the house must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use. How could this possibly and practically be enforced? The regulations state "The approved dwelling must be serviced with a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres." The regulations also state: "An on-site water supply available for fire fighting purposes must be provided, having a volume of not less than 20,000 litres." oh please semantics obviously you are in the industry of rain water storage so perhaps you can tell us why the dwelling has been rejected after all you appear to be the expert I simply interpreted the rules as I understood them Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 11Mar 16, 2013 7:20 pm Pellana semantics Exactly! As used to write regulations and laws. Think of the importance of not confusing the use of will and shall. The regulations as posted have obviously been wrongly interpreted by other non industry persons. How could the regulations possibly be interpreted that the house "must have a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use?" If you had a 40,000 litre tank, it would have to be kept constantly full. The regulations clearly refer to... "storage capacity" in relation to tank size. No mention is made of "a minimum of 40,000 litres of water for domestic use." "on-site water supply" as the minimum water to be available for fire fighting. The regulations also state that "the fire fighting water requirement can be part of the water supply required for the house, so long as the fire fighting water is not used for domestic purposes." The above clearly means that the property owner can have a 40,000 litre capacity tank but if there is no other tank that supplies 20,000 litres of on-site detention, then the 40,000 litre tank has to retain a minimum of 20,000 litres at all times for fire fighting. There is an intended distinction in the regulations as written between "the minimum water to be available for fire fighting" and "a rainwater tank having a minimum storage capacity of no less than 40,000 litres." Pellana If you were to join the 2 tanks together then you are not meeting condition 15a and given the 2 tanks are joined there will be no ability to stop one of the tanks being used within the house therefore not meeting condition 15b and point 5. Obviously 15c doesn't apply. The above is very basic and covered when I posted: SaveH2O The bottom pipe would naturally be fitted with a (open/close) valve. As such, the tanks would be isolated. I also recommended that the tank kept for fire fighting would be best used to overflow to the second tank, thereby supplying the house tank with the best quality water. It was clearly stated that the tanks would be isolated even though connected by an overflow pipe and a bottom balance pipe (with at least one on/off valve.) 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 13Mar 17, 2013 1:06 am Severely_Frustrated, You are dealing with poorly written contradictory regulations written by a panel of bureaucrats. The wording of Condition 15 (b) for example is absurd. Do you have room for a third tank? You should look at the average rainfall pattern, work out your total indoor and outdoor average daily usage and the usable storage capacity needed. DO NOT do harvesting calculations based on a 100% yield. A single 22,500 L tank won't last long during the dry. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 14Mar 19, 2013 12:43 pm Hi there guys, Just a quick update - I have sought clarification directly from the Council Officer whom issued the Decision Notice and they too are of the opinion that if we keep the tanks separate, then this is enough to satisfy both Conditions. I have forwared this off to the Private Certifier, whom is going to discuss this with the Council Officer himself... Now I just have to pray that the Private Certifier is able to see it as I and the Council sees it and allows me to have my house!!! Thanks for all your help and I'll keep you posted on the final outcome. Cheers, Not_So_Frustrated!!! Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 15Mar 19, 2013 1:32 pm If the tanks are balanced with a bottom hose that has at least one on/off valve and the water was fed into the fire fighting tank and overflowed from a flexible coupling to the house tank as I suggested, it would satisfy all requirements and be superior to having one larger tank as... 1) The best quality water would overflow to the house tank as the fire fighting reserve supply tank would be a settling tank. 2) The additional 2,500 litre fire fighting storage capacity can be accessed from a low outlet for outside use. This will draw water from the anaerobic zone, thereby further improving the water quality that overflows to the house tank. Your builder has demonstrated a lack of knowledge about rainwater systems and there is absolutely no doubt that you will end up with a storage system that will not be as good as one you could have if you post the design with pipe sizes, roof area harvested, fittings and flow path in the Eco Living sub forum for critical analysis. This is just matter of fact for builders and plumbers as just about everyone pays too much for what are sub standard systems. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 16Mar 29, 2013 10:11 am SaveH2O If the tanks are balanced with a bottom hose that has at least one on/off valve and the water was fed into the fire fighting tank and overflowed from a flexible coupling to the house tank as I suggested, it would satisfy all requirements and be superior to having one larger tank as... 1) The best quality water would overflow to the house tank as the fire fighting reserve supply tank would be a settling tank. 2) The additional 2,500 litre fire fighting storage capacity can be accessed from a low outlet for outside use. This will draw water from the anaerobic zone, thereby further improving the water quality that overflows to the house tank. Your builder has demonstrated a lack of knowledge about rainwater systems and there is absolutely no doubt that you will end up with a storage system that will not be as good as one you could have if you post the design with pipe sizes, roof area harvested, fittings and flow path in the Eco Living sub forum for critical analysis. This is just matter of fact for builders and plumbers as just about everyone pays too much for what are sub standard systems. SaveH20 - Thanks for this information. I will look into how I can tweak my tank set up in the near future. Is that Eco Living sub forum on this site - I haven't had a good look around it yet? An update on this whole sorry matter - I had a win! I was able to clarify through the Town Planner at the council whom was more than happy with how the tanks were - that they remain separate - is enough to satisfy their requirements. I passed this information onto the certifier whom sought further discussion with the Town Planner, but came back with being able to pass them form me! Yay! The certifier then went on to say that I also needed a hard stand around the tanks & that I had to have non-slip treads on my internal tiled stairs... He also went around measuring every window to ensure the external opening was more than 400mm from the ground as per the fire regulations! One didn't quite meet this "standard" so my building supervisor kicked away a rock & said - measure it again! Apparently he was being very picky on a lot of things and appeared to have just done an auditing course or something of the same, as he was in arse covering mode big time! Once again I went back to the Town Planner to seek clarification of what constitues a hard standing area close to the tanks, as per their requirements, and they didn't have any definition of what would satisfy this, so from my discussion with him & photographs taken around the area, the Town Planner was happy with what I had there also...! I also got in contact with our local Rural Fire Bridgade, got them around to take a look & got their opinion also, and they said that in an emergency - our tanks would be the last resort for them!!! They had never heard of either of the above regulations requiring 20,000L be available for fire fighting purposes nor the requirement for a hard standing area also! So it seems that this policy has been written by some bureaucrat sitting in their shiny office with no real discussion or thought of what would really happen in an emergency...! A happy ending to this story is that we got the keys last Friday & were able to move in over the weekend! Thank you all for your assistance & I look forward to learning more about water tanks, settling systems and building in general, as - as crazy as it is - I want to build again, but this time do it right - DO IT INFORMED! Cheers, Marty. Re: Water tank capacity for fire fighting requirements 17Mar 29, 2013 1:05 pm Hi Marty, Good to see that you are no longer severely frustrated. Things are looking up. A lot of local regulations are written by bureaucrats who do little more than research websites and of course a lot of websites are erroneous. A lot of inspectors also lack knowledge in many areas. For example, I deal with non compliant roof drainage issues on new homes all the time. All of the non compliant houses I see have been passed as compliant by plumbers who self certify and the building surveyor then accepts the Certicicate of Compliance as proof of compliance!. I have no idea what this guy would have meant by "hard stand." What does "stand" even mean? Maybe he was referring to the tank base. Maybe he also meant that you had to have a hard area around the tank to give a fire truck access. It should be noted that section 15 does not mention the rural fire brigade, it only states... Section 4. ASSESSMENT MANAGER CONDITIONS Condition 15. Bushfire Management An on-site water supply available for fire fighting purposes must be provided, having a volume of not less than 20,000 litres. It is generally intended that a fire fighting water supply tank when required is also made accessible and available for use by the rural fire brigade but this should be stated in the regulations. I was wondering if they actually have a regulation for the size of a required fire hose outlet, it doesn't appear so! If they have specified a 20,000 litre onsite fire fighting storage and they intend this is made available ans accessible to the rural fire service, it would be crazy if they didn't also regulate the required outlet type and size. This is usually a 65mm STORTZ outlet but I was talking to a customer a few weeks ago and he said that they had to have a different size to this. You need to check the local fire service's requirement. BUREAUCRATS! It is puzzling that houses are required to have onsite fire fighting storages when the rural fire brigade has not been informed. They should at least have a register and contact details of all properties that have fire reserve storages and that the tanks are regulated to be equipped with the type and size outlet required by the rural fire service. It is a real good idea to have a mandatory reserve storage but if you set up a fire fighting system for yourself, don't use a pump that is reliant on grid power. The Eco Living forum is near the bottom of the sub forum index. WATER TANKS: Without doubt, you will be diverting via a wet system to your 2 tanks. I offer the following information and suggestions. A wet system diverts water to the storage system via a flooded pipe that is generally buried. It then diverts up a vertical riser and feeds water in through the tank's top inlet. The big problem is that the flow velocity is most often insufficient to flush debris in the pipes up the vertical riser. Another problem is that the available head does not vary and is always less than the height difference between tank's water surface level and the rainhead/leaf diverter. If the transfer pipe is 100mm DWV, the most common one used has an internal diameter of 104.2 mm, giving it an internal capacity of 8.5 litres per metre. The minimum accepted horizontal flushing rate is .6 metres per second. This is 5.1 litres per second or 306 litres per minute for 100mm DWV pipe. If you had lets say a big 300 sq metre roof, you would still require rainfall of 1 mm per minute to flush the debris in the horizontal pipe but what about the vertical pipe? The added problem that you have here is that your tanks are also reasonably tall. Many people with multiple tanks also fit multiple vertical risers off the one infeed pipe. If you were to fit two vertical risers off the one pipe to your two tanks, you will halve the velocity of the water travelling up the risers. The result will be that the debris in the horizontal pipe will be trapped in the pipe. Debris in the horizontal wet system pipe reacts differently to debris in the bottom of the tank. Water in the tank can breathe whereas the water in the pipe cannot. When organic matter breaks down, it takes oxygen from the water and the water becomes anaerobic. The next stage is stagnation. Wet systems need to be regularly flushed to remove debris but this wastes water. Flushing is also a poor term as the pipes are actually drained and people would be shocked to see the amount of gunge that still remains in the wet system pipe after it is drained. You only have the one tank to supply the house (this is not enough) and you can ill afford to waste yield by flushing the wet system to improve the water quality and prevent stagnant water polluting both tanks. You are also better off diverting all of the water into one tank and drawing the house water from another tank that is filled by settled water that has overflowed from a flexible coupling fitted between the top of both tanks. The upper level water is much better quality than water taken from the bottom anaerobic zone. SOLUTION: Any detritus needs to enter the tank by a means other than only being able to travel up a tall vertical riser during a major rain event. When a major rain event does happen, the tank's inlet mesh can also block, resulting in an overflow and little water getting into the tank. To remedy these wet system problems, you firstly need to fit rainheads/leaf diverters to every downpipe. These are mandatory in many areas to prevent mosquitoes access. The Australian Guidelines for Water Recycling state: 9.4 VERMIN AND INSECT-PROOF SCREEN 9.4.1 General Inflows and overflows from above-ground tanks and vents have to be provided with a securely fastened vermin and insect-proof screen mesh with holes less than 1.0 mm in diameter or as defined by the local responsible regulatory authority. The above is important as the best remedy to prevent wet systems retaining debris and becoming anaerobic is to reduce the 100mm DWV pipe to 50mm at the point where it becomes a vertical riser. You do this by fitting a 100mm tee. This allows the tee's branch to connect to a 100mm riser but also have the main horizontal pipe reduce to a 50mm or 40mm DWV pipe that connects 9Via a flexible coupling) to a 50mm or 40mm inlet fitted a minimum of 100 mm above the bottom of the tank. This will do a number of things. Most of the water diverted to the tank will enter through this low flow restriction inlet as it works with a greater head due to the variable height of water in the tank. It assists with any low flow/head issues up the riser if the riser's head is limited. No wet system flushing = higher yield. Improved water quality. A simple and easy to fit DIY sediment trap my company recommends to capture bed load can be fitted to a non turbulent section of horizontal pipe approximately 3-4 metres past the last point of turbulence The simple DIY sediment trap uses off the shelf fittings but an invert taper is now used instead of the pipe reducer shown in the diagram below. If leaf diverters are not used on all downpipes, an inspection cap must be accessable on the tee or 45 degree junction because of the pipe's size reduction. The pipe size is reduced to increase the flushing velocity and to minimise water wastage. Once the slug of dirty water exits, the valve can be closed. Like ⋅ Add a comment ⋅ Pin to Ideaboard ⋅ I intend to publicise the trap to farmers as a method of improving harvested water yield and household water quality as soon as I have the available time to do so. 3in1 Supadiverta. Rainwater Harvesting Best Practice using syphonic drainage. Cleaner Neater Smarter Cheaper Supa Gutter Pumper. A low cost syphonic eaves gutter overflow solution. DIY, Home Maintenance & Repair This is a very challenging situation, made much harder by not being on site. Firstly, I think that I originally… 10 8936 18 90424 From what I know about water tanks (I've been working with a client on them for a few years now) is this - The concrete can last a lifetime if they don't crack for some… 2 10620 |