Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Sep 06, 2006 3:41 pm We have just had a major blow to our hme building plans. A preliminary assessment has found lots of issues with our proposal.
First let me put most of you at ease, we are building in a green wedge area with all sorts of special environmental issues so most people will not face such a tough council. We have to provide a bunch of reports and statements, fire plans etc. This sort of stuff is annoying but not earth shattering. What is a problem is that the home we propose to build apparently does ot fit in with existing homes in the area. The problem for me is that the existing homes are all old 70s, 60s and earlier. They are generally small - badly laid out and have poor thermal design. The house we are looking to build is a double storey cube shape (approx 200SQM - and no garage). This uses the smallest amount of space on the block (not that our block is small - but to preserve the natural environment) and is heat efficient. It is also formal and symettrical which is my personal preference. We now have to go away and redesign the whole look to somethink I don't like, pay lots of extra $$$ and for what? We plan to grow a high (up to 5m) "Neighbours-be-gone" hedge around the entire exposed perimeter so no one will be able to see it to be offended. The hedge we are going to grow will not shade out the neighbours as the sun comes from their side (and besides they have 2 massive trees which shade out our land.) and the other side is already hidden. We are on a terminated road (firegate one end) which is not frequented by tourists or anyone other than those that live there. So what do people think, am I being unreasonable whining about having to change the fascade and possibly the design of the house? I get the feeling that people in areas like this will oppose any new house whatever. Changes are likely to blow our budget right out of the water, is this fair? 3timesbuilda Re: Dealing with Council 2Sep 07, 2006 8:27 am Green Wedge sounds like Victoria - is that correct?
If so, then you can tell the Council to bugger off and go to VCAT instead. So long as you comply with their published design criteria then you should be OK (NOTE: This is NOT legal advice!!) because many planners actually overstep the mark and become a bit too subjective when making assessments. Have their been objections yet to your proposal by neighbours? Just because they object does not mean the council has to listen to them as the objections may be rubbish anyway. One thing is for sure, planning is a pain in the gluteus maximus but the other sure bet is that Council will negotiate with you if you threaten to fold up the plans and see them in VCAT. Reason being is that at VCAT the Council rarely wins these cases and the approved design ends up being far 'worse' than they would have ever even considered, let alone passed. Just the same, you need to be careful here and be sure of where you stand but you are not alone, thousands have gone before you and thousands more will follow you!! Re: Dealing with Council 3Sep 07, 2006 1:03 pm Hi Builda,
Thanks for your reply. Yes we are building in Victoria - the Dandenong Ranges - Yarra Ranges council. The published design criteria seems to be pretty vague mostly alluding to the fact that the house should fit in with the houses in the area and have a rural look. I am thinking of changing the fascade to try be more compliant as I understand it. Unfortunatley this will cost about $10 000 - money unbudgeted. We are still at the beginning of the process - ie the guy at council has had a brief look at our proposal and then sent us a letter detailing areas of concern and likely not to comply with the councils requirements. I believe that this was meant as a courtesy letter so that we could fix things before council makes it's descision. Some of the requirements are a bit strange to me as a private individual as I am being treated as a developer. For instance I have no idea of how to write a statement about how the proposed plan would fit in with the existing environment - sure I can make something up but would I address the criteria correctly and format it appropriately. This means that I have to rely on my builder whom are great at building but I am less confident in their documenting abilities. If they can't come up with something reasonable, I will have to pay for a planning consultant or town planner - another unbudgeted expense. Then there is all the fire (CFA) stuff to take care of - more $$$ and then the Arborist - more $$$ and I start wondering if this is all just a money making exercise. Another difference from NSW and WA is the need to incorporate all elements of your design into the one plan - eg. provision of the septic and driveway. These I would normally arrange once construction has begun and I can get a better picture of where things are going to go. I did have a look at VCAT yesterday and got the same feeling - that council descisions are often overturned there. The neighbours have not yet had a chance to object, but no doubt they will - going by the number of objections to developments brought to VCAT in other cases. This is unfortunate as it will put a strain on future relations if their objections are unreasonable - and probably cost us money. One of the concerns I have with using a planning consultant or town planner is that they may include or modify things that are not really necessary to get this approved. Any comment on this? What about undertaking for the future, we plan on putting a covered deck at the back of the house at a later date (within 5 years as finances allow) which would work to relieve the unarticulated back wall. Similarly I was thinking of growing a ticky creeper on the eastern wall and this should relieve this wall a bit from it's blandness. Maybe some stormwater tanks on the western side. Plan to plant hedges around the exposed perimeter so that we are more private etc. Also face the issue of driveway going over tree roots which are close to the surface. I was thinking of an inch or 2 of coarse grain sand covered in a similar amount of coarse gravel. This should let the water in but protect the roots from damage. Does this sound reasonable? I don't want these trees to die as they are an integral part of the property. I was also thinking of having a double carport under these trees - no concrete, just more sand/gravel. Does this sound viable? As for thousands going before me, I am not so sure - at least not in my suburb - it is very small and seem to be very much established. I doubt that any new house has been build there in the last 10 years and I suspect that that is the way the locals would prefer to keep things. Draw your swords gentlemen Re: Dealing with Council 4Sep 08, 2006 8:54 am G'day 3timesbuilda,
We have just spent the last 18 months going through the planning process with the Yarra Ranges Council, and have had to work our way through many of the problems you are facing at the moment. We have recently received our permit along with about 30 conditions that have taken us several weeks to meet. They are a very frustrating mob to deal with and common sense is NOT a concept they are familiar with!!! I would be happy to share my experiences and help in any way I can, please feel free to PM me. Cheers, W. Re: Dealing with Council 5Sep 11, 2006 10:55 am Hi Winglet,
I have been through this exercise on similarly difficult areas. In fact, I'm currently building a house for a client on a 35 degree slope next to a protected creek - and this blaardy rain won't stop! Basically, your best bet is to kiss Council's arse. Yes, you can take it to VCAT (assume that's kind of like NSW's Land & Environment Court) but it will be expensive. This is one of the cases where I would strongly recommend using a qualified architect. It sounds like you are going to get objections from your neighbours no matter what, so I'd cop it on the chin, and be super nice to them. If your design is really off-the-wall, you may have to go back to the drawing board, eg. if you're building in a heritage area, it's not fair to expect the authorities to permit you to build a McMansion (not that I'm suggesting this is what you're doing). With regards to the driveway concern, we have used an Atlantis Cell System to combat this issue. Not cheap, but does the job very well. Your civil engineer can help. Re: Dealing with Council 6Sep 11, 2006 11:51 am Well we were over at our land yesterday planting out a veggie patch. Neighbour came over to chat. Seems they are very anti council and have a policy and I quote "it is your land and you can build whatever you want, don't care if you build six stories high" I describe briefly what we are planning to build and they seemed completly unfazed. I indicated that we were willing to put up a brushwood fence (currently wire mesh) and they basically didn't mind either way. Husband and wife, he spends lots of time in New Zealand and she works so they are not too bothered. Looks like we are going to get along really well with this neighbour.
The great thing about this is that they are our most visible neighbours by a long way. Their objection would cause us great headaches. They did warn the the neighbour on the other side of us can be a bit dificult. Fortunately we are building away from her side and there is a lot of thick bush between us. I intend to suck up to council but if I sget no joy and they are being unreasonable, then I will fall back on VCAT. Not sure of the exact costs but I believe that it is designed as a cheaper way of resolving these issues. What I like most about VCAT is that they usually got to the site to see for themselves and seem to work from common sense. (based on the cases I have seen on their web site) Re: Dealing with Council 7Sep 14, 2006 12:03 pm I came across an article in our local paper saying that Knox city council is looking to team up with some other councils to go to the state gov and try to get them to "reform" VCAT. Apparently VCAT has been overturning too many of their decisions and they don't like it. Maybe it is because it highlights their gross incompetence.
How do we go about defending VCAT and preserving it's powers? We actually seem to have a regulatory body that works and defends the interests of the ordinary person. We need to preserve this or else any challenge of council will cost tens of thousands of dollars effectively giving councils carte blanche. Re: Dealing with Council 8Sep 15, 2006 10:59 am 3timesbuilda I came across an article in our local paper saying that Knox city council is looking to team up with some other councils to go to the state gov and try to get them to "reform" VCAT. Apparently VCAT has been overturning too many of their decisions and they don't like it. Maybe it is because it highlights their gross incompetence. How do we go about defending VCAT and preserving it's powers? We actually seem to have a regulatory body that works and defends the interests of the ordinary person. We need to preserve this or else any challenge of council will cost tens of thousands of dollars effectively giving councils carte blanche. Weeelll... There are two sides of this fence. Say you build your dream home, with a lovely view over the water, bellbirds singing in your lovely rainforest backyard. Then one neighbour puts in a DA to add another two stories, blocking your view. Council says no way - they take it to VCAT and get it through. Or a developer buys a big chunk of your rainforest, and puts in a DA to bulldoze it for units. Council says no way - they take it to VCAT and get it through. I know, I know, extreme example - but I feel that local Councils will represent their ratepayers better than State Government can. Re: Dealing with Council 9Sep 15, 2006 1:28 pm The problem I have is that I have seen all too often that the big boys, developers and rich folk will get through whatever they want anyway as they have the financial muscle to go through the court/legal system.This provides THEM with a similar system to VCAT.
Now if ordinary folk are given the same via VCAT, then council will have to tone the trivia down and at the same time concentrate on watertighting the important stuff. That way big developers don't get an unfair advantage and we are on a more even playing field. Please also note that VCAT is largely made up of Baristers, solicitors and Town planners. High skilled and professional people and they appear to often take the time to visit the site in question, talk to affected parties and of course those who are appealing. Lets give them some credit in making unemotional, unbiased common sense rulings. Most councils appear to have lost touch with what residents actually want and be honest how many residents are likely to know the planning policies of their council until they need to do something. It is not as though the democratic system is highly geared to prevent this type of poor descision making since it is very specific. It is not the fact that there are rules, it is the fact that they are unevenly enforced, over zealous and trivial. The examples you give would fall in the range of common sense and would not get past VCAT - if you don't believe me, have a look in the VCAT rulings archives and see for yourselves. Lets not lose something that really works and instead encourage the councils to work on waterproofing their most important rules. This way we get what we need, protection without unnecessary red tape and trivial requirements. 3timesbuilda Even if it's not being sub-divided and you want to keep it as Torrens title, you will still need to talk to a town planner or Council themselves, to see if they will allow… 1 11039 We've had the offer of a short term tenant whilst waiting for CDC/DA home approval and demolition for our knock down rebuild. It would achieve a pretty low rent as it's… 0 13759 This was on google. Development controls 2.3.1 Front setback D1 New buildings within residential areas shall adhere to a front building line, which is 5.5-6m to the… 1 3677 |