Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Dec 06, 2011 8:08 pm We paid an architect to draw some conceptual renovation plans for us last year (bedroom extension and some internal walls removed). He gave us license to take these plans to a builder to have all the working plans and submissions to council done because he said it would be cheaper. We gave the builder the conceptual plans, and informed him they came from an Architect (it was on the plans). The builder we went to suggested some changes (he moved the extension to another part of the house), and the company drafted the revised plans up for a small fee ($500). We then signed a Preparation of Plans Agreement to have all the plans for planning and building permission at council complete and submitted, we paid $8200K upfront. We told the Builder we would be seeking additional quotes to ensure we felt we had the best price, but indicated we would be happy to go with them if the quote was good. The PPA stated that the company had copyright over the working plans and planning drawings, and that we would have to pay initially $10K if we wanted to get someone else to actually build what was on the plans. I admit I didn't really understand copyright, and said we would only pay $5K which was agreed to. However, I now wonder if they were actually able to claim copyright on the working and planning drawings given the original concept is copyrighted by the Architect and we paid them a fee to produce all the documentation for council. It has taken this company 6 months to draft all the plans for council (we made very few changes), get engineering drawings and environmental report (we estimate this has actually cost them about $5.5K). We are very unhappy with thier customer service and I have lost faith in thier ability to do the renovation based on thier performance so far. So I would like to walk away from this company and get another builder to do the actual build, but I am not sure where we stand on copyright, and I am reluctant to give them more money for nothing. Can they claim copyright just on the technical drawings, that were based on the original architects drawings? And does the fact we signed the contract agreeing to this make thier claim and more legitamite? Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 2Dec 06, 2011 9:38 pm RJKraft We paid an architect to draw some conceptual renovation plans for us last year (bedroom extension and some internal walls removed). He gave us license to take these plans to a builder to have all the working plans and submissions to council done because he said it would be cheaper. We gave the builder the conceptual plans, and informed him they came from an Architect (it was on the plans). The builder we went to suggested some changes (he moved the extension to another part of the house), and the company drafted the revised plans up for a small fee ($500). We then signed a Preparation of Plans Agreement to have all the plans for planning and building permission at council complete and submitted, we paid $8200K upfront. We told the Builder we would be seeking additional quotes to ensure we felt we had the best price, but indicated we would be happy to go with them if the quote was good. The PPA stated that the company had copyright over the working plans and planning drawings, and that we would have to pay initially $10K if we wanted to get someone else to actually build what was on the plans. I admit I didn't really understand copyright, and said we would only pay $5K which was agreed to. However, I now wonder if they were actually able to claim copyright on the working and planning drawings given the original concept is copyrighted by the Architect and we paid them a fee to produce all the documentation for council. It has taken this company 6 months to draft all the plans for council (we made very few changes), get engineering drawings and environmental report (we estimate this has actually cost them about $5.5K). We are very unhappy with thier customer service and I have lost faith in thier ability to do the renovation based on thier performance so far. So I would like to walk away from this company and get another builder to do the actual build, but I am not sure where we stand on copyright, and I am reluctant to give them more money for nothing. Can they claim copyright just on the technical drawings, that were based on the original architects drawings? And does the fact we signed the contract agreeing to this make thier claim and more legitamite? Can't see how they can claim copyright for developing your architects drawings, more likely he can sue them for breach of copyright. But neither can I see how you get out of your contract for $5,000 if you build with someone else to their drawings. But you can start again with somebody else. And provided you don't show the new builder your changes, he can come up with anything at all (even identical) and it won't breach copyright - because he won't have copied it. So be sure you don't show the new builder the drawings from the old builder. (In order to prove copyright infringement there must be proof of copying . Henley Arch Pty Ltd & Anor V. Clarendon Homes (Aust) Pty Ltd 1999) Ed "ECOECO" At 'EcoEco', we design windows, we design the best windows, we do it for you, so that when you’re happy we are happy. Tel. 1800 326 326 Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 3Dec 07, 2011 12:10 pm A couple of threads on this to point you in the right direction. Download the copyright pdf that I link to and have a good read. viewtopic.php?f=31&t=51051 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=47968 Personally I don't think the builder can claim copyright if the original idea came from the Architect in the first place despite him changing a few walls around. A quick chat to a solicitor wouldn't cost much and would be preferable to what we say here. I'd ask another draughtie to draw up working plans based on what you give him/her and see if they have any suggestions also. Stewie Stewie Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 4Dec 07, 2011 12:44 pm My understanding is that both the architect and builder own (part) copyright, for their contribution. However, if you have paid for the design service then you have a license to use the plans on the target site. I'm pretty sure of this, but someone with legal knowledge may like to confirm or refute this. Demolition August 2009, Construction Started September 2009, Completed December 2010 Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 5Dec 15, 2011 1:48 pm On the face of it I would say, given that the extension has now been designed at a different location, that the Builder has copyright. The copyright laws can be onerous, but basically a judgement for infringement could be based upon whether or not there are specific 'features' in the original that are replicated. It is wise for anyone having drawings prepared to ensure that the copyright is signed over as a part of the contract. Having said that I would not provide conceptual drawings, with a licence, without adjusting to a higher fee to cover the prospect of the possibility of not being engaged to prepare the full documentation. Peter Clarkson - AusDesign Australia www.ausdesign.com.au This information is intended to provide general information only. It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice. Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 6Dec 15, 2011 4:51 pm Just as an update. The feedback we have recieved is that copyright is such a complicated thing it is not worth pursuing. Also, the fact we agreed to the 5K pretty much locks us in. That is fine, I just wanted to make sure the builder was being on the level. To be honest, I would not have even questioned it if the whole process had happened more efficiently and if they had been more open and communicative with us. Unfortunately the relationship has deteriorated and the builder has refused to provide us with the signed engineers drawings as promised in the contract. We have told them they have to provide us the signed engineers drawings for council, and when we add a new builder to the council plans we will pay him the 5K. In total they would have earnt nearly $14 for one 30m2 single story flat ground extension, with ensuite. Not bad money I reckon. Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 7Dec 16, 2011 7:54 am $14,000 !! He is ripping you off blind. The bulk of my work is ground floor and second storey extensions which I charge clients $3,000 to $5,000 for a full set of plans depending on the complexity of the job. Engineering drawings on top of that are about another $2,000. Stewie Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 8Dec 16, 2011 9:13 am I know Stewie. If only we knew that in the beginning, but now I just want it to be over so I can get the renovations done. The annoying thing is we really tried to do things the right way, I read up on the things to look out for and we really read the contract, but were't not lawyers and in the end you really do need someone who knows the business to give you advice before you even start. Hubbie keeps telling me that the extra $5k is better than the $150k we would have forked out if we had signed a contract that allowed him to build also. It irks me, but I have come to terms with the fact there is not much I can do about it without giving myself an ucler Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 9Dec 21, 2011 5:39 pm I keep hearing stories like this and it just makes me sad that there are so many unscrupulous people in the building industry. I think the main lesson here for you and other people is to do your homework first , ask lots of questions and don't sign anything until you have read all the fine print or had it explained by a competent third party. By the sounds of it , paying them another $5,000 might be the best money you have ever spent , given their track record so far. Stewie Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 10Dec 27, 2011 12:07 am We have decided to cut our losses. We considered going to small claims court, which resulted in this fella becoming particularly nasty. However, even there we are still likely to end up having to be tied to him in some way. So we have decided to revert to our original architect plans and start from scratch. Looks like it will only cost us about $2.5k to do everything again as we have met lots of other nice people in the building industry during this whole sorry mess. However, we are wondering whether we need to send this builder any final exit notice. We owe him nothing, and I am inclined to just withdraw without any other words as things have got rather heated. However, we want to be very sure we do everything right so he can't have any reason to come back at us in the future. Do people think we need to make any final statement about us no longer requiring his services, or should we just fade into the distance? Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 11Dec 27, 2011 8:57 am It is a bit harsh that the builders and others always get labelled as scammers or unscrupulous. To be fair, by reading the initial post the poster was fully informed of costs up front, in the case they chose to not proceed with the builder but wanted to keep the plans. Thye have signed contracts agreeing with these terms but now don't like them. The architect only did initial concept plans, and at $500- they would have been pretty basic. However, as the builder changed the concept design, if there was sufficient difference b/n the initial and final, the architect would no longer have copyright. The major cost is in working drawing and these have been done by the builder.. The fee from the builder has obviously not just a fee for purchasing the plans, but also for breaking a contract to build with them. Consumers need to a) check out all terms and fees of a contract to ensure they are fair BEFORE they sign b) be aware that changing your mind after business commences inconveniences people and you will generally pay for inconvenience. If a builder has an expectation of a job they will put aside time, ensure sufficient staff etc. It is easy to bag out service providers / vendors when something doesn't go like we want, but there is generally responsibility on both sides Re: Copyright on plans by architect & working plan by builde 12Dec 27, 2011 10:15 am Although the original post was about copyright and the additionl 5K in damages, we came to accept some time ago that this was something we had to live with. However, the eventual disagreement with the building company was that we did not want to give him the final 5k unless he provided us with all the working drawing that were required for council. He refused to provide us with signed engineering drawings, and a release to use the plans elsewhere, which are obviously essential. We have offered a variety of different option (ie: he refund the amt for us to go to a different engineer; arranging a neutral place to exchange drawings and money so no-one has to worry about the other not fronting up). Although I agree we should have understood the process better at the beginning, we have always been very clear with the builder that we wanted the option to walk away if we wanted to use another builder. The money we paid upfront was a % of the build, not based on the cost to do the working drawings, and therefore in excess of what it probably cost him. If it hadn't taken him 7 months to complete plans that should have taken 3 months, if he had returned calls and kept us informed, if he had told us when our project manager left the job, or that the builder he was originally connected with (and whom we had done reference checks on) had changed and he had a new builder that was unknown to us - then we would not have wanted to look at other builders at all. Now we just want to get out with the least amount of damage. However, as I said, we have spoken to lots of other people and a new builder who have been fantastic and the comparison between this fella and them just makes me realise what a bad decision we made in choosing him in the first place. Probably a reflection of the time, as 12 months ago I couldn't get a builder to call me back, but now things have slowed down and people are looking for work and not turning it away. Your build is relatively simple, I believe your job can be easily done by a good building designer, you really do not need to pay for the architect. Remember, architect's… 3 10986 Hi Mofflepop, I would recommend finding a building designer to prepare plans, they should design to your specified budget. The benefit is you can tender the project out… 9 20417 I had a similar issue with my fridge not too long ago. 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