Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jan 24, 2011 8:10 pm Hi guys.... We have a bit of a doozy arise today. We recently purchased our house, and whenever there is heavy rain, our backyard gets very water-logged, and the drain at the end of the driveway backs up and water can be up to 1 foot deep where it sits for days until it eventually drains off or dries up. (Maybe not quite 1' but hubby thinks it is ). Our two neighbours either side have a similar issue. But the neighbour two doors down is fine. We got a plumber out (who I since think did not really know what he was doing/talking about) and he put his 'big long thing' down the drain hole to see if there was a blockage - but he couldn't find one. (After taking a hefty sum of $$ for his efforts, he said he'd call back with where to go from there, but we never heard from him - and good riddance basically). Today we got serious about investigating as we want to start landscaping soonish but want to make sure we have all our problems rectified first. We rang the council who surprisingly came out same day to assess the situation. I won't bore you with the intimate details... but... suffice to say.... that we have been advised that apparently once there was a 'private drain' (don't ask me what happened to it) but in fact we are not linked up to any drainage system - and that the previous owners (who bought the property with the sole intention of renovating and selling) knew of this. But, we don't know what they did - if anything - to rectify it. There is talk that they may have put in a soak well (whatever they did - if anything - it is not working/doing its job). We are talking about stormwater - not sewerage. We suspect they have put in 'something' because of a couple of comments that the previous owner/builder made to us about that particular grassed area (for eg, talking us out of extending our deck over that part - and telling us the water wast catching there due to it being a low point) - I had always suspected something was 'under there' but now it is all coming together. We are yet to get to the bottom of it..... but I am just wondering. Does anyone have any expertise in this area, or able to help in the way of information. Like I said, whatever is going on, it isn't working - and apparently we don't have drainage on our property. Can anyone enlighten us as to what might be involved to get proper drainage happening?? Would we have to create a drainage system out to the front street? Or?????? I don't even know exactly what a soak well is or how efficient they should be at containing the stormwater. This guy had intentions of selling so I doubt he would have gone out of his way to outlay any more $$ than he needed to. Anyone got any help they can offer up in terms of what might be involved here to rectify our problem? Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 2Jan 24, 2011 8:14 pm Oh, and my second part of the question is.... are we entitled to drainage as part of ... whatever it might be called.... but just the same as you are entitled to sewerage disposal/water connections etc. Or, if we bought the property this way, too bad??? But what if the sale contract/section 32 is misleading and shows what appears to be drainage plans and easements?? Does anyone have any knowledge if we have a leg to stand on to follow this up? Of course we want to know where we stand and who is obliged to fix/pay for this. But to be honest, it's not my main concern - my main concern is actually fixing it. Thanks folks.... just really want to get to the bottom of this one but I know it will take some time. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 3Jan 24, 2011 8:28 pm here is some information on soakwells Soak wells are one of the ways of disposing of stormwater. Basically a properly constructed soakwell is a pit which is big enough to contain a reasonable amount of heavy rain (Say 25mm of rain on your roof). The soakaway has holes in it to allow the rain to soak into the surrounding ground so it can empty before the next rain. This is quite a sustainable method of dealing with rain as it ensures that all water falling on the property is retained within the soil structure. In very heavy rain the soakwell will not be able all take the flows but this is also common for stormwater drains which are only designed for certain storms. Thats why you often see roads flooded in heavy rain. Some of the problems with soakwell systems are: * The pit isn't big enough * Instead of a properly constructed soakwell some people dig a big hole and fill it with brick rubble which works for a few years and then becomes blocked. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 4Jan 24, 2011 8:34 pm Your question about easements is complex to answer but basically the presence of a drainage easement is not a guarantee that there will be a pipe in the easement or if there is a pipe that the pipe will have the capacity to take all your flows without flooding. Basically drainage is administered in Australia in quite a different manner to sewerage with much lower levels of control. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 5Jan 24, 2011 8:43 pm We are downhill from the nearest stormwater connection so don't have one. We have a pipe that goes to a soakwell down the end of our block. But before it gets there, it goes into an open drain, covered with a metal grid (so pipe into the open drain and pipe out of open drain to soakwell. If we get a really, really, really big storm, this overflows and the excess water goes onto our lawn and then flows through neighbour. This would solve your problem. I am not a plumber, but plumbers can put a camera down a drainpipe and see how far it goes, whether it is blocked etc etc and give you some options. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 6Jan 24, 2011 9:06 pm Thanks guys, really appreciate all your input. I'm still getting my head around it all - it's a new world to me. Bashworth - thanks for the info. When you say 'fill it with bricks and rubble' is this intentional? For what purpose? Or do you mean as a means of dumping stuff? FWIW, whatever they have done, it is only 6-9 months old. Also... would the 'soakwell' be why our lawn gets very very very wet in heavy rain (ie, it is being released underneath the surface and coming to the surface??) Or is it because we have sandy/bad draining soil.). After heavy rain, you can even see under our deck is like a lake and I often wonder why it is soooooo wet under there. Lots of questions, sorry, just trying to piece it all together and start to get an understanding of what we are dealing with. As for the easment/contract part of things.... I understand what you are saying about no guarantee about a pipe to the easement. However, when I was last at the council enquiring about this, they gave me a copy of a 'site plan' showing the 'proposed alterations and additions' with regards to existing and new downpipes, and where they connect and flow into the easement at the back. It has been stamped by the building surveyor (from what I can gather) saying "Building Permit Endorsed Plan" "This is to certify that the document is substantially in accordance with current building regulations and building act". But it seems that they did not in fact carry out these plans because there is no drainage out to the easement (there is no drainage in the easement from what I can gather - or in fact no actual easement... sorry, still getting to the bottom of it). But my point is, that it looks like they did not follow through with what is on this plan.... does that mean anything?? For all intents and purposes, to me, I would have (and did up until today) take this plan as a given as to where the pipes are etc. Free will... thanks... but from what I am now understanding.... we do actually have a soakwell (yet to be confirmed). And if it does flow through to neighbour, that doesn't solve our problem. Sorry, may be I am misunderstanding something (quite possibly). And, thanks for the tip about a plumber and a camera, that might be the way to go - so we can see what we are dealing with. That reminded me, that is what our original plumber was going to do - come back with a camera but we never heard back from him (he was a sheister so glad he didn't actually). Thanks again. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 7Jan 24, 2011 9:33 pm Filling with Bricks and Rubble. The sort of idea is that the voids between the bricks take the water. But its really a ******* way of doing it. The fact that you have standing water probably means the soakwell is likely to be substandard (Too small and probably not deep enough) Basically in regard to the Permit most of the people issuing permits are building experts not drainage experts. Perhaps if the submitted plans say flow is going to a drainage pipe that might get the tick without anyone checking if its possible. The Harder You Try - the Luckier You Get ! Web site http://www.anewhouse.com.au Informative, Amusing, and Opinionated Blog - Over 600 posts on all aspects of building a new house. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 8Jan 24, 2011 9:45 pm The weird/stupid thing is... that it was overflowing in the first place (because apparently, as discovered today) we don't have drainage on our block. So I don't even understand why the previous owners bothered to put in a soakwell if they were selling (unless they needed to do 'something' to try and avoid getting caught out on inspection days if there was any rain). But honestly, we just need to get one serious day of rain and our drain/yard is flooded. So I just don't see what improvement/if any - his stupid soakwell has done. And as for the plans, I'll have to try and find out if they submitted them but didn't follow through - how did it pass building surveyor inspection to be adequate??????? just all a blur to me. Need to go to bed and get it out of my head for now i think. Too much to take in. Any more input greatly appreciated... but I will leave it ther e for tonight. Thank you sooooo much. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 9Jan 26, 2011 7:32 pm We also discovered we aren't connected to stormwater. We border a park and the original soak well is in there. We didn't even know until we put our tank in. We ended up putting a new soak well on our property but it isn't big enough so it overflows to the park (council guy suggested this on the sly). We are now doing an extension and will have a problem due to the extra roof area as it really won't cope when the tank is full. Apparently we will be connecting up to the stormwater but it will involve a pump to get the water uP hill. This is at our expense. Bit dirty that we have been forking out money to yarra valley water for stormwater stuff all this time. Hope that helps! Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 10Jan 26, 2011 8:30 pm Thanks donnam... interesting. Can I ask (sorry, probably a v stupid question but I'm still navigating through this and come from a background of knowing absolutely nothing about drainage/easements etc)..... but how do you connect to the stormwater?? Once we know what is happening underneath our soil (ie a soakwell, or leech (sp?) drains or whatever) then we will have a clearer understanding of our options. Which at this stage seem to be - an extra/bigger soakwell (assuming one already exists) or trying to redirect the water away from the house - maybe to the road where it can go down a stormwater drain on the road?? Or there is a highschool at the back and they have some kind of drain/easement going along our back fence on the other side so maybe we could connect to that but have no clue. So just wondering how you were going about connecting?? Thanks for your input - it is all most welcome as we endeavour to gather as much information as we can. ETA - also a watertank (which we did want to get at some point) might be a help too - at least catch some of the run off instead of it helping to flood the yard.... of course once the tank is full it will be a bit useless but it's a start. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 11Jan 26, 2011 8:46 pm As far as I know we will connect up at street level. We do border a park so that is an option too. We haven't really investigated either properly other than knowing we can do either. My understanding of it all is rather limited. Good luck Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 12Jan 26, 2011 9:55 pm Hi, everything you are discussing makes perfect sense to me. I am currently subdividing a block, and drainage has been an issue in getting my permit approved. So lets just say, I would now consider myself somewhat up to date on what this drainage thing is. Options available, costs involved, legal requirements, permits required to fix etc etc. (I'm just wondering how old this property is, I think you said Yarra Valley, but it might be a house built 20yrs ago, or 6mths ago - I think this will affect your outcome here) Firstly, let me say, I've been told many different things by plumbers, most really don't know what they are talking about, they just have some idea, and of course that amount of info, in some hands, is counterproductive (ROLLS EYES), and let me say from experience, if you act on it, you often end up looking like the stupid one! So, here's the facts. The only person who can help you with this exact matter is the engineer at your local council. That's it, that's all, no one else. If you put a private drain along someone else's land, you have to have an easement over it (or should I say they have to agree to an easement - by law they can refuse!) If they don't give you access (ie. easement) you won't get council permission (2011, not the law back 20yrs ago) to build on that block. See, you can provide a stormwater drain (and that's what you are talking about) from the lowest point of your land, to the legal discharge off your block, any way you like. But water doesn't run up a hill. (remember the bloke above who said he had to use a pump, because he had to get it back up the hill - here's a guy who couldn't get it to the legal discharge point any other way - the pump would have been his last resort (remember pumps can fail), and he would have paid probably between $3K to $5K, but it would have got him over the line legally to get a building permit. So if there was no agreement to put a drain under a neighbour's property, there are other options (or were for the previous owner) to get the water to the legal discharge point (usually the curb/channel drain of the nearest street going downwards) like that bloke who uses a pump. In my case, if my neighbour disagrees to my drain and easement, (if I don't want to spend big bucks on a pump) my only other alternative is to "fill" the land in order to tip the scales of land direction, so that the land no longer slopes down my block, but slopes up, towards the front of my land, and hence to the legal discharge point. If I go this way, council will approve, but they want it marked on my title that the block has fill etc etc... It's all ballbreaking stuff, but it's gotta be done so a future owner doesn't have the issues you are currently having - fair nuf! I just want a quick, cheap option, sadly, there's none. Last thing - prior owner liability - you say the building plans were signed off, but the fact is that the council (ie. engineer at council) may have agreed to a lot of rock to disperse land water run off (I'm assuming the drains from your roof lead out to the street, because there's no way they'd agree to that going onto the land if your home was built in the last 20yrs), so just land, side of house, yard etc run off, they may have said, just disperse it in rock at the back of your block. It certainly sounds like they have done that. My council wouldn't even agreed to that idea, they want land, side of house, roof etc all to go to legal discharge point, so if my neighbour agrees, I have to dig up all along his side of block, get him to place an easement on his title, and this council want to see it to believe it - fair nuf! See, I'm thinking owner said he did it, but didn't do it, and council didn't check - if so, council may have to pay you money to fix!! I just depends on what council say about prior owner's agreement to do on their building permit application. You need to get a copy, go see the engineer, and get advice from him. THEN if it's at all *******, you need to see a lawyer. By the way, don't bother with anyone else in council, just the engineer, trust me, most of them truly don't know what they are talking about, it comes down to the engineer, that's it, that's all, don't waste any more time or money wondering. GOOD LUCK MATE! A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 13Jan 27, 2011 7:54 am My two cents worth.I have just finished a three lot one arce subdivision,all have street frontage drain[sealed road drains underground].The one in the middle has a 134m driveway[battleaxe]because of this the land has about 2m rise at top of drive then drops about 2m.when I got permit I have to do drainage[contain storm water within boundary and into street drain]I got shire engineer out,because when shire made drainage conditions it was from there office.Once they came out they changed requirements,all I had to do was connect 200 pvc from drain to just inside boundary of each lot.The person[hopefully me] who builds on middle lot will use a tank then it will be gravity feed.Like Annietom said talk to engineer.[a bit more than two cent worths] Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 14Jan 27, 2011 9:11 pm Annietom and pattycake, thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences. Annietom, as I said, it's all new to me so I must admit, I have to read through your post a couple of times to try to make sense of it (not your explanation - just my understanding). I'm still a bit unclear on some points. But let me start by saying... house is approx 55yrs old, but it has a recent (9 months) extension and full renovation by previous owner (who owned the house only for the duration of the renovation/extension). I know that the house to our left has the same issue, and the house to our right apparently had the same issue, but he got all of his pipes connected up to run to the road at the front of his property. I am not sure what his problem is now but his backyard still floods but we think this is run off from the neighbouring school tennis courts which apparently flood chin deep and run into his - and his other side neighbour's yard. Either that - or there is serious drainage issues on their property. He has just put in a pool so he is worried a little bit about the drains etc running along his back fence where he has put the pool . It is all very hard to try and get a grip on. Just met the neighbour 3 houses up tonight - and he says his backyard has a big hole filled with water (created from just having a really soggy back yard and soft soil or something??). But he apparently has drainage connection - it is just us and either side of us that don't. Very confusing. I think we all have issues - but I think they are not one and the same??????? Either way, thanks for your tip to speak to the shire engineer - we have been in touch with one from the council (as unhelpful as she was) and I tried calling her back today but she was on leave, so I will try to pin her down tomorrow. Might see if she can come out and see what is going on with all of our properties - and what each of our options are. (They sent out two bozo's for a maintenance check the other day but they sniffed around, and then took off without giving us their opinion on the situation - and then our file just said "no drainage - no further action required" and the engineer was even unhelpful supplying us with that info (shakes head). Anyway, we shall keep at it. Just not sure if we are going to attempt to have our stormwater run off our property (via the street or back easement of the highschool or whatever way that can be done) or whether we will put in soakwells and tanks and what-not and retain the stormwater on our own property. And thanks pattycake... like you said - will get the engineer on to it and see what our options are - and the neighbours too. I guess, I just need to know that at some level - it is fixable! It is fixable - right? Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 15Jan 28, 2011 7:49 am I would make a time to meet head of planning/engineer department.I found some don't have enough knowledge and give wrong information,then have a meeting on site.If it was me I would want head engineer on site 55years ago councils drainages consist of terracotta open pipes.Looks like a big job council might have to look at the big pic good luck. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 17Jan 28, 2011 8:42 am thanks pattycake. Yes, am thinking of trying to get the neighbours together for a meeting and then seeing if we can get an engineer out (head engineer sounds like the way to go) - to look at all of our problems from the 'big picture' perspective. Currently, we are all scrambling around individually trying to solve our own problems (mind you, I do think some issues are completely separate to others, but still, a good place to start). foc1 - thanks - I did check this out and rang our water company. But our water company is only involved in removing sewerage from our property, not stormwater - so they don't charge for drainage of stormwater. (It is stormwater we have an issue with, not our sewerage - thank goodness). HHCIB Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 18Jan 28, 2011 9:56 am Hi HHCIB,had a look at my planning permit .Melbourne Water Corporation maybe able to shed some light on your drainage works will pm ph no for you. Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 19Jan 28, 2011 3:22 pm ok thanks patty cake... sorry, saw your PM before I saw this post, and replied querying why you were sending that no. . Thanks again... HHCIB Re: Anyone know anything about stormwater drains/easements?? 20Jan 28, 2011 3:40 pm hi again, yes I'd say that 55yrs ago, no such thing as stormwater pipes were required. Funny they got plans thru for a reno/extension tho, with no drains required. Perhaps the run off from your roof goes to the street, so they complied with their requirements, and the flooding in your yard has nothing to do with the extension. Really, I think on the engineer to can say this one way or another. So I think water problems you and your neighbours are experiencing are caused by the slope on your blocks (the whole street) because your blocks must slope backwards. Otherwise, so your land is so "flat" that it can't run forward. Either way, I think if you all want to fix the problem, you will all have to have new stormwater pipes properly laid by your own combined cost plumber along the back of your properties. I'm sure this would have to be secured by an easement, but not 100% sure. Perhaps in liaison with the water company, the pipes will be theirs, and hence no easement required. You will have to have it run out onto the street (curb/channel) somewhere, I'm not sure where (council will help you with that), and you need to get a permit to do that (I think "road breaking permit" = informal permit - excuse to get more money off you!!) but that's it. I am still yet to get my quote to do this work, so I'm sure about price. But I just got the price to do my sewer work, which was substantial length (and usually costs more than stormwater pipes) and that came in at just over $2K (not including excavation work). I'm doing that to save money. Def pin your engineer down, make sure you ask if there is more than one engineer, there often is in a council. Good luck! A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ I had an old shower unit that broke on me and when I took it off, there were only 2 water pipes, instead of the normal 2 water pipes and a shower head pipe. S o I… 0 36937 The most definitive answer to your question James is this taken from the James Hardie Axon Cladding Installation Guide - i just happen to have it… 5 3663 Plumbers 'can be' plumbers, made all the worse by self certification which the building surveyor invariably accepts as proof of compliance! The good thing is that you know know. 3 4859 |