Browse Forums General Discussion 1 May 12, 2010 1:04 pm We have an old, cheaply done, enclosed sunroom off our kitchen. We bought this house with a view to turning the sunroom into a family room with doors opening to a deck. It is all proving WAY more complex and expensive than we dreamed. We had Archicentre come up with a concept plan and plans drawn up by a draftsman for council. We haven't submitted them yet but are in the process of getting quotes in..... turns out for this ONE room (including blocking up the toilet, bathroom and one bedroom window opening onto it), new flooring in kitchen and a deck off will be in excess of $100K. Well, so far two builders have quoted that, waiting on two more. One major stumbling block has been the builders interpretation of the design - the new room will have a skillion roof and resulting box gutter running between old roof and new addition. We had no idea that they were such a problem! Gah. Now we are learning. All the builders suggest we completely redesign the room to have a conventional roof....but we already spend over $2000K on plans for council. Should we just go ahead and instead spend the money we could spend on a redesign on getting a gutter man to keep the gutter clear every month (we live in an area with lots of gum trees). Also, I'm having real doubts about whether we would be overcapitilising anyway???? But the room as it is now is the kids playroom but either too hot, too cold and leaks in the rain. Thoughts anyone? Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 2May 12, 2010 6:47 pm I have been in the building industry for 20 years and yes box gutters are a PITA I'm yet to come across a archictect that is close to his estimated budget the truth is speak to your builders far chance they will come up with a better cheaper option that will save you a lot more money than the 2k you have already spent. This is not always the case though but in 90% of cases it is. My advise if you can then stay away from box gutter as when they leak (not if but when) it can cause thousands upon thousands of dollars damage Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 4May 12, 2010 11:47 pm If you do decide to go ahead with an internal box gutter make sure you have sufficient overflow allowance. An opening at either end would be one way. No overflows means that when your gutters overflow one day because your downpipes are blocked or cannot drain adequately during a big storm you will be watching a waterfall down your inside walls. Pretty much the majority of large buildings such as hospitals, airports, shopping centres etc all use internal box gutters. They need to be designed for a 1 in 100 year storm, have sufficient overflow (100% IMO) and regular maintanance is essential. They can work fine but many homes simply don't have the roof drainage designed properly as architects and builders tend to take the same approach as they do with eaves gutters which just doesn't cut it with internal gutters. It has to be done right. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 5May 14, 2010 12:36 pm Thanks Mozzie. Didn't htink about commercial properties. I guess if my builder is concerned and we go ahead at least I know he is going to try his best to do it right. Things are looking up - we got a quote in yesterday from a builder $60K less than our most expensive quote so far (from a reno company) and he says to just go ahead with plans as they are and we'll just tweak as we have to during the build. PHEW. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 6May 14, 2010 12:42 pm Framboise Things are looking up - we got a quote in yesterday from a builder $60K less than our most expensive quote so far (from a reno company) and he says to just go ahead with plans as they are and we'll just tweak as we have to during the build. PHEW. I'm glad things are looking more hopeful - we found the same thing some years ago when we wanted to extend our house. Four builders quoted on a fairly simple weatherboard-clad upstairs extension consisting of a bedroom, ensuite and small study and the variation in pricing was unbelievable. It was so confusing and intimidating, we ended up just not doing anything at all. Be sure to get references before signing up with a builder though - ask for details of some recent clients and have a chat to them. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 7May 14, 2010 6:29 pm I reckon you could halve your costs if you get a builder's advice rather than an architect's. Architects only seem to be worried about how it looks since their name is going on it, whereas the Builder has to build the damn thing and can often offer practical suggestions that make it easier for him/her to build and therefore cheaper. Built a Tribeca 44 with the Big M Sales Accept 15/06/09, Contract Signed 24/09/09, Site Start 23/11/09, Slab 11/12/09, Frame 12/01/10, Roof 20/01/10, Lock-up 30/03/10, Fixing 30/04/10, Handover 27/08/10. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 8May 16, 2010 7:15 pm jimmalenko I reckon you could halve your costs if you get a builder's advice rather than an architect's. Architects only seem to be worried about how it looks since their name is going on it, whereas the Builder has to build the damn thing and can often offer practical suggestions that make it easier for him/her to build and therefore cheaper. X2 in most cases this is true on a few occasions though I have not been able to fault architects drawings but this is rare. In my opinion the best approach is shop around find a builder or 2 that you are comfortable with get them to come around and give you some ideas (most will do this for free) then go and see your draftsman or Architect Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 9May 17, 2010 3:21 pm woodbutcher jimmalenko I reckon you could halve your costs if you get a builder's advice rather than an architect's. Architects only seem to be worried about how it looks since their name is going on it, whereas the Builder has to build the damn thing and can often offer practical suggestions that make it easier for him/her to build and therefore cheaper. X2 in most cases this is true on a few occasions though I have not been able to fault architects drawings but this is rare. In my opinion the best approach is shop around find a builder or 2 that you are comfortable with get them to come around and give you some ideas (most will do this for free) then go and see your draftsman or Architect This seems backwards to me. Shouldn't you engage an architect and give them a brief and a budget so they can design a concept? Once the concept has been approved proceed to detailed drawings and from there put out to tender (or engage selected builder) for quotes/pricing. If the price comes in too high the client, architect and builder should get together to identify areas for savings which can include changing the specs/quality of materials, changing the design (e.g engineering) or whatever other ideas the builder/archotect has to simply or reduce costs. Renovation Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=38489 Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 10May 17, 2010 3:44 pm Biff Costanza woodbutcher jimmalenko I reckon you could halve your costs if you get a builder's advice rather than an architect's. Architects only seem to be worried about how it looks since their name is going on it, whereas the Builder has to build the damn thing and can often offer practical suggestions that make it easier for him/her to build and therefore cheaper. X2 in most cases this is true on a few occasions though I have not been able to fault architects drawings but this is rare. In my opinion the best approach is shop around find a builder or 2 that you are comfortable with get them to come around and give you some ideas (most will do this for free) then go and see your draftsman or Architect This seems backwards to me. Shouldn't you engage an architect and give them a brief and a budget so they can design a concept? Once the concept has been approved proceed to detailed drawings and from there put out to tender (or engage selected builder) for quotes/pricing. If the price comes in too high the client, architect and builder should get together to identify areas for savings which can include changing the specs/quality of materials, changing the design (e.g engineering) or whatever other ideas the builder/archotect has to simply or reduce costs. That's fine in theory, but unfortunately reality doesn't work that way. You waste money doing it that way (kinda ironic, isn't it?), and here's why; Architects don't understand functionality and budget; they understand structural integrity and visual amenity. You get the Architect to draw up the concept. Once happy with the concept, you get the Architect to draw up detailed plans. You get potential Builders to cost it (They are the ones building it therefore they cost it, not the Architects). The cost comes back way too high, so you get the Architects to draw it up again. Then you get the potential Builders to cost it again. And even then you may still have work to do. So instead of paying an Architect some absorbitant amount (time is money, after all) and still possibly not getting a suitable result, why not cut out the middle-man and go straight to the Builder, who has practical knowledge of budget implications from the get-go and can tell you straight out if your concept cannot be realised for those $$$ ? Built a Tribeca 44 with the Big M Sales Accept 15/06/09, Contract Signed 24/09/09, Site Start 23/11/09, Slab 11/12/09, Frame 12/01/10, Roof 20/01/10, Lock-up 30/03/10, Fixing 30/04/10, Handover 27/08/10. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 11May 17, 2010 3:46 pm Building Designers (such as ourselves) & Architects will generally steer designs away from incorporating internal box gutters due to the inherent problems that can occur. At times this may be unavoidable due to design restrictions or client funds etc. If a gutter of this type needs to be included then it must be designed taking into account the roof area impacting & rainfall data for the particular site. In all cases owner maintenance is required & should be fully discussed with Clients Peter Clarkson - AusDesign Australia www.ausdesign.com.au This information is intended to provide general information only. It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 12May 17, 2010 5:28 pm jimmalenko That's fine in theory, but unfortunately reality doesn't work that way. You waste money doing it that way (kinda ironic, isn't it?), and here's why; Architects don't understand functionality and budget; they understand structural integrity and visual amenity. You get the Architect to draw up the concept. Once happy with the concept, you get the Architect to draw up detailed plans. You get potential Builders to cost it (They are the ones building it therefore they cost it, not the Architects). The cost comes back way too high, so you get the Architects to draw it up again. Then you get the potential Builders to cost it again. And even then you may still have work to do. So instead of paying an Architect some absorbitant amount (time is money, after all) and still possibly not getting a suitable result, why not cut out the middle-man and go straight to the Builder, who has practical knowledge of budget implications from the get-go and can tell you straight out if your concept cannot be realised for those $$$ ? Architects most certainly do understand functionality and budget - that statement is pretty unfair. In between the concept stage and detailed drawings you can get a cost plan done to give you an indication if the design can be built to budget. Architects generally charge a % of the estimated build cost so the time taken to work through these issues doesn't translate into higher fees. Architects invest the time and energy into projects to produce a quality product for their clients (well ours has anyway!) and they want to see a successful outcome just as much as the client does. Perhaps your approach is better suited to smaller jobs? Renovation Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=38489 Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 13May 17, 2010 6:13 pm I'm using a commercial project that should cost about $500k but is going to cost $1.2mil solely due to our architect's ignorance and insistence on floor to roof windows, bay windows with landing platforms, obscure "cutout" wall shapes instead of a four wall rectangle and subsequently a very complicated roof truss plan as my evidence. Built a Tribeca 44 with the Big M Sales Accept 15/06/09, Contract Signed 24/09/09, Site Start 23/11/09, Slab 11/12/09, Frame 12/01/10, Roof 20/01/10, Lock-up 30/03/10, Fixing 30/04/10, Handover 27/08/10. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 14May 17, 2010 6:41 pm jimmalenko I'm using a commercial project that should cost about $500k but is going to cost $1.2mil solely due to our architect's ignorance and insistence on floor to roof windows, bay windows with landing platforms, obscure "cutout" wall shapes instead of a four wall rectangle and subsequently a very complicated roof truss plan as my evidence. Would you like to name the Architect or quantify your statement. Peter Clarkson - AusDesign Australia www.ausdesign.com.au This information is intended to provide general information only. It does not purport to be a comprehensive advice. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 15May 17, 2010 9:58 pm ausdesign Would you like to name the Architect or quantify your statement. No and No - I've thread-jacked enough already Simply put, my advice to the OP is to cut their losses with their current architect, and talk to their prospective Builders direct. Built a Tribeca 44 with the Big M Sales Accept 15/06/09, Contract Signed 24/09/09, Site Start 23/11/09, Slab 11/12/09, Frame 12/01/10, Roof 20/01/10, Lock-up 30/03/10, Fixing 30/04/10, Handover 27/08/10. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 16May 18, 2010 9:50 am I had a client whos architect designed a $1m extension which when costed by a builder was $1.5m. we engaged one of the builders to review the plans, make them more buildable and save money to get closer to the original budget. the client still got what they wanted with a fixed upper cost of $1.2m . all was not lost as the original plans were really just concept plans to get get council approval and then we got the builder to draw what he could build within the budget and following the general design concepts and council approved plans. same principal can be applied to this project trust the builder and get a maximum cost for his modified design , make sure this is OK with approval authority and then build Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 17May 18, 2010 10:14 am A few comments if I may: 1)No ones mentioned the importance of a Quantity Surveyor yet. If youre nervous about cost, you should involve them at every stage of the design development. Yes your paying for another consultant, but you could save huge amounts of money and time. 2)It would be a sad bland world if 'Builders' were designers. Standard brick and tile construction forever more. 3)Box guters do work....if done properly. That meaning fully flashed and sealed, correctly calculated capacity volumnes, adequate and properly fitted outlets and overflows. This one comes down to workmanship every time. I await furious replies. Pat. Re: Builders think plans no good - do we start all over agai 18May 18, 2010 11:55 am Pat the draftie A few comments if I may: 1)No ones mentioned the importance of a Quantity Surveyor yet. If youre nervous about cost, you should involve them at every stage of the design development. Yes your paying for another consultant, but you could save huge amounts of money and time. 2)It would be a sad bland world if 'Builders' were designers. Standard brick and tile construction forever more. 3)Box guters do work....if done properly. That meaning fully flashed and sealed, correctly calculated capacity volumnes, adequate and properly fitted outlets and overflows. This one comes down to workmanship every time. I await furious replies. Pat. 1. I did! 2. I completely agree 3. No comment - I'm not sure I even know what a box gutter is! Renovation Thread: viewtopic.php?f=31&t=38489 If there have been changes, variations, during construction then the drawings should be revised, the building permit amended and the current, as built drawings given to… 2 4478 No. It's not original. Circa early to mid 90s would be my guess and maybe even as late as early 2000s 1 6626 A question. Im in Queensland and building a new home. We managed to reach practical completion 6 weeks ago but we haven't heard any date for handover yet. Who should we… 0 5800 |