New Home Owner Experience - not good

builda, can i ask who you represent? are you a small builder or big builder?

99% of builders are fine is laughable depending of what your defnition of fine is of course. i can probably accept that 99% of builders will not totally screw up your life, but if the end measure is whether the home owner is satisfied with their builder i woul say the percentage is likely to be 10% that is atisfied. this is of course based on some of the comments made about "larger builders" here and this probably accounts for a majority of unsatisfied customers.
what i am getting at there is the building industry has a culture of customer dissatisfcation and arrogance that will take a decade to change if ever. my comment is probably bias given my experience with a "large builder" but i hope my views differ in the next builder i choose to build with, but i very much doubt i will again.

Small builder and I still maintain that at least 99% of builders are fine but stress that that does not mean that none of us have any problems. The difference is that when we do, we fix them.

There are between 30,000 and 40,000 registered builders in Australia at present. Out of these there are probably 100 or 200 of the biggest volume type builders but only a few of those would build over 500 homes per annum.

What I'm saying here is that a very small proportion of builders, actually do a large proportion of the work. All large builders are not *******, however if one large builder is ******* then it effects far more consumers but it is still only one builder. Hence the problem can seem bigger than it really is but please don't misunderstand me - I believe the problem is bigger than it should be and we as an industry need to do much better.

The other statistic that is confusing to consumers, and rightly so, is that there are heaps of so-called builders out there that are not registered and prey on people who do not know the difference.

Privatisation of Builders Warranty Insurance in 1997, and the collapse of HIH in 2001 pushed thousands of builders outside of compliance as they were not prepared to meet the financial criteria imposed by the insurers ie put their home on the line or provide a bank guarantee. Consumer Affairs Victoria attest that these are the 'builders' causing the most havoc in the community - but they are unregistered and outside the 30,000 - 40,000 as mentioned above.

One group of builders I do support are the Builders Collective of Australia and if you have a quick look at their website you will see why. Issues with consumer protection and indistry management are issues for all of us to deal with and the BCA is the only builder group that appears to get it these days.

http://www.builderscollective.org.au/

Your figure of 10% may well be correct as a percentage of projects, but not as a percentage of builders. The Victorian Building Commission say that 4% of building works end up with a major level dispute. They have an embarrassing history of supplying figures to make themselves look good so you could easily double that figure and yes, make your 10% of projects look somewhere on the money. But percentage of actual builders is a different statistic all together.

New home, if you pulled that bs on me, i would definately be held up for assault, the first thing that there seems to be a complete lack of in your case is a brain...

You are a danger to yourself and common sense, and common respect.

You are putting down the whole industry with your bucket mouth and feeble brain.. So go some where and grow up, please ...


Perhaps we should concentrate on the consumer that wants all the extras , but has no intention or capability to pay for it...

builda, can I just ask you where you are located? If in Melbourne, would you be interested in talking to me re. building a house? Thanks.

assault? need i say more?

Mek, I didn't come on this forum to solicit work and would be a bit uncomfortable in doing so. I just have a keen interest in the industry and the boundless misinformation that flows between builders and our consumers, arguably our most valuable long term asset.

Just the same I will send you a PM with my details if you want to have a chat offline.

Oz Ken, chill out mate!. This is an open forum where experiences and thoughts can be aired.

I can tell you now, that If I am spending a few hundred thousand on something (and I am right now), and it is not what I agreed to for the quality I am paying for, then I will get narky , and have as recently as today. I want my house built in a reasonable time. there might be delays, and if they are for a reasonable reason, then fine. I am not unrealistic. But I have not and will not put up with BS, sales pressure, poor quality and mistakes, especiecially where I have to chase up the peeple I AM PAYING!!.

If you want to start abusing people, just bugger off.

builda, Thanks for your honesty , and information.

Adrian B

ozken, I'm assuming you've had hard times from customers who wanted extras but were unable or unwilling to pay for them. If builders only specified exactly what you get and what is extra, everybody would be happier. This way, both parties assume too many things and surely, things don't progress smoothly. And it seems it's mostly down to buyers to work out this complicated language that builders talk, and yes, we should, it's our money, but I'd be a lot happier with straightforward speech. As it is, there is a lot of things we are not told upfront, and I think we should be.
Anyway, I've learned even before we signed anything, hopefully I haven't left too many things out.
If your profession has left you this bitter with your customers, what are your plans for the future?

to whom it may concern... with or without brains..


I have not had a problem with any of my clients, as a matter of fact they are extremely content with me. But that is neither here nor there, and not in discussion. I am sick of loooking at the garbage that is coming out of some of the bucket mouths here, that seem intent on rubbishing every aspect of the building industry, according to it's minute mental capability. All through life I have persevered with idiots, but not many with the lack of intelligence and common sense that is being displayed on this site by an insignificant few.. And to those few.. Have a nice day...

And by the way Adrian... u chill out, and i'll air my grievances any how the way I like.. u butt out pal.

Ozken, get a grip.

Its a public forum, so I will have my say,as will others,as you can, But just cut the personal crap.Its pretty pathetic, and does no cause for what you are trying to say.

You are more that welcome to air your grievences here, and if you think that your industry is copping a hard time, then go for it and defend it.

Show us why and we will read it. Give us the other side of the equation, Not abuse.

I am genuinely interested in reading it. Tell us what hoops you have to go through, and the bollocks you indicate you cop on a regular basis. It may put some people at ease, it may help explain what we only see as "No you cannot do that" whay what we need to hear is "This is why you cannot do that.

BTW I am fine, no need for chillin here.

Look forward to you sharing your experiences with us OzKen

Adrian B

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Perhaps if you could pay attention to what is being said, then you would not need an interpretation for the content.. Ie.. I can see the words, but what does it mean..


Pay attention , and read it a few more times and it may penetrate deep enough for you to comprehend.


Fondest regards.. Ken

Whatever...

Newhome, sorry your threrad got hijacked.

Adrian B

Agreed Adrian B. The discussion is about 'new home owner experience - not good' and unfortunately for the industry it is an all too relevant topic.

As builders we have to be able to cop critisism and (hopefully) explain and articulate our position so that our current and prospective clients understand. As I've said before, that is sometimes a very difficult process as there is a lot of money involved on both sides and consequently the 'negotiation' can very easily get derailed - from either side.

When that happens then yes, the new home owner experience is not good for either party. To my mind a public forum like this is just that, a place where the free flow of ideas can occur so that we can try to solve our problems, not just for us but for those that come after.

There are many new home owner experiences that are very good but we never hear about those and to my mind neither should we! Why? Because that is what we (as builders) are paid to do and we deserve no accolades for simply doing our job as we are supposed to.

That is why we hear about the horror stories and if we are to move forward as an industry and admit to ourselves that we are part of the modern world then we need to deal with the horror stories (from both sides) and fix them, not suppress them.

Personally I want the disgruntled home owner to be able to put their issues up for advice and if relevant, some kind of scrutiny. Angry clients, and overly suspicious ones from talking to previous angry clients, are not what any of us need because we work in this industry EVERY day - we don't just do one job and get back to our life...this is our life.

So, sorry for the waffle but Adrian B I do concur - let's stick to the point and accept that just because a client and builder have issues, does not necessarily mean that one or both are imbeciles and deserve their problems because beleive me, nobody deserves a building dispute!

Your post isnt waffle builda, just comoon sense. Thanks for the reply.

Adrian B

I agree with the comments by builda. As a person who is currently having their home built, and is currently getting greyer and greyer hair as the weeks progress, it is fair to say that I would not be posting on here if everything was going well and as expected, but that is human nature. For example say I order a burger at a burger joint, when I get excatly what I ordered I do not thank the person behind the counter profusely for it, I just leave, but when I dont get what I ordered I will complain.

Its the same situation here, the difference however is the amounts of money and time involved and therefore the stakes (for both sides).

The biggest thing that strikes me as incompetent about the building industry in australia is the apparent total lack of any sort of basic risk mitigation strategy. There is no concept of planning for and minimising possible risks before they occur, instead that standard way is to turn up assuming nothing will go wrong and then when something does, everything gets delayed and back logged. The idea that an extra 3-4 days at the very start of the project would save everyone 3-4 weeks during the project seems beyond most builders (mine in particular - hello Ventura Homes) to grasp and it drives me NUTS

As someone who works in the defence industry for a private company, risk mitigation and avoidance strategies take up a large portion of my time, but it need not be as complicated as what I do, its just basic what-if problem solving and planning.

end rant (by way of a strong freshly brewed coffee - ahhhh)

Anyways human nature means that when things go right we except it as our due, and when they go wrong we complain, often loudly, hence the reason these forums exist.

But it is a two way street, we (as clients) bag and complain about builders - sometimes with good reason, but it is just as valid (and possibly very helpful to all) for builders to start pointing out the problems they have with customers too. The building 'fence' is too high to see over, so hearing a voice from the other side telling us what it is like would be a good experiance.

Builders have very little right to complain about their clients.

The reason why we engage a builder is because we believe them to be professionals who have experiences in their field and hence be able to advise apprpriately and be trusted upon.

What a surprise when this does not occur hence our right to be more than angry and warn prospective consumers of our experience.

If our experience is positive then there is no need to highlight this fact because this iswhat any reasonable consumer should expect if they were forking out a few hundred K, a professional.

I repeat my message again, SOME builders are professionals at taking advantage of their clients, especially LARGE builders, as i have mentioned many times all their processes are geared towards putting themselves at an advantage. There is just too many instances for me to repeat hence I advise every prospective consumer to remember the principle that is dont let them take advantage of you, evaluate every decision based on that principle.

Just imagine this, a large builder will churn through thousands of clients every year, what advantage will an innocent first home owner over a builder of that capacity. Im sorry but there is NO WAY in this world that you can take the side of the builder in claiming that a client would be in the wrong given the profesionalism that would be expected of a builder with such experiences.

Newhome, we enter a building contract. Under a contract both parties have rights, responsibilities and obligations.

If consumers OR builders default any of these then either party has every right to complain. I understand you've had problems but there is no group that is always right, and one that is always wrong. Usually, if not always it is a bit (or a lot) of both parties fault.

My issue is that if you as a consumer, or I as a builder wish to complain then we currently have very little scope or forum to complain and get resolution. That is, we have a dispute, but resolution of the dispute is far too often a near impossibility. I agree, Consumers are often, but not always, the ones that end up getting the rough end of the pineapple. Legal fees escalate, houses don't get fixed and in the worst cases consumers have even lost their homes in the battle.

Dispute resolution is a serious issue that effects all of us. Currently the HIA and MBA are not so interested in sorting out dispute resolution and there is no viable consumer advocacy to speak on your behalf to counter their intransigence. I wish there were!!

Maybe that is something that can grow out of this forum?

I fully understand your anger and I totally agree, prospective building consumers must be warned of the traps but at the moment if they get caught in a trap there is no decent, reliable nor robust mechanism that will GUARANTEE that they can survive it.

This is predominantly a State Government issue. Everybody reading this forum should write to their State Government AND the opposition and make the case for change. You only have to look at the amount of views this topic gets above all others - this is obviously a big issue!

Totally agree Builda, as someone who is not a builder but works within the statutory requirement aspect of building, i often see both sides of the coin when problems arise. Can i say firstly that the majority of problems arise through ignorance of each parties rights & obligations in respect to the 'PARTICULAR CONTRACT SIGNED & AGREED TO'.

This is where i feel a great number of problems can be averted before they get a chance to arise. By both parties taking the extra time & effort at the beginning to understand the contract terms, then hopefully the project can move forward in a co-operative manner.

I also agree with Newhome, there are builders out there who shouldn't be allowed to build a dog house & the larger organisations are really a law unto themselves when dealing with consumers. I have often talked with collegues about how this can be solved effectively & it always comes back to the root cause. POOR ADMINISTRATION & REGULATION ENFORCEMENT BY THOSE VESTED WITH THE RESPONSIBILITY! In NSW the Office of Fair Trading is responsible but is such a mickey mouse organisation that it should be disbanded & replaced.

Our industry is plagued by the constant embaressment of a minority of shonks that give the mostly reputable builders a bad name. Remember, these people are just like yourselves. They are trying to run a business under the weight of enormous amounts of paperwork, unfair market conditions & a myriad of other things all the while trying to give their clients a quality product. It can be a tough business.

The OFT has a lot to answer for & you can blame them for the current market conditions that are unfair to both parties in NSW. If by chance you are unlucky enough (& i mean UNLUCKY) to be sin binned from the industry for whatever reason you can simply rebadge yourself & continue to trade.

There is a campaign going on right now to stop the Home Warranty Insurance rip off & to make first resort claims & dispute resolution priorities. You can check out www.builderscollective.org.au & join the fight. Queensland currently enjoys the best system in Australia for consumer protection & dispute resolution. Not to mention that they are the ONLY state in Oz that will ban a builder for life from the industry. Both builders & consumers will benefit from these attempts to make the industry a fairer & more accountable market.

The fight is currently being waged by a small but vocal group & the need for fair minded & articulate people like yourself to get involved is paramount.

Hope to have some positive fedback.

Do'h!! I have a bad habit if making every website a .com IT SHOULD READ... www.builderscollective.org.au

Sorry about that folks.

Well worth a look to find out what is going on in the industry.

Good call Paris and there are other links to that site on this forum.

Every other State has problems with this except Queensland and they are the only State where there is no private financial vested interest allowed to 'manage' consumer protection.

Vic, NSW, Tas, WA, NT and to a lessor extent SA (other reasons for that) have a consumer protection fortress built on the jelly like foundation of insurance company profit margins. That is, Governments have decided to protect their profit margins or else the insurers desert the industry. Then we have the HIA and MBA who sell this insurance for commission - another vested interest working against consumers and often even their own members.

Financial vested interest in consumer protection regimes is really at the core of the problem but unfortunately it will take nothing more than a consumer revolt to change it.

There are people on this forum that have tried to access help from BACV in Victoria only to discover it too is a toothless tiger like the OFT in NSW. I can only encourage consumers to write to the insurers, the Trade Associations (HIA and MBA) and most importantly your local State Member(s) of Parliament. These are the bodies responsible - MAKE them responsible!