New Home Owner Experience - not good

mek · May 19, 2006 11:32 am

Hi ladyice, how is everything going?
It seems you and I have very similar tastes when it comes to houses. We've got Nava as one of our proposed builders, have gotten a quote from them but they're probably our 3rd preferred builder. I wasn't too impressed with their detailed quote (the sales person, even for me as a complete amateur, wasn't very accurate quoting) plus they were a lot pushier than other builders (asking if we were ready to sign a contract very early on).
Have you started the ball rolling yet? It does speed things along if you visit their display and start talking then and there, as opposed to ringing them. Cheers!

Mrs M · May 25, 2006 12:05 pm

Hi all,

I am new to this forum - and not surprisingly - a disgruntled first-time-builder. We researced long and hard, went through every tiny detail with a fine-toothed-comb and are still being repeatedly burned by our inconsiderate and completely unprofessional builder. I cannot recommend a good builder (does such a thing really exist???), but I can surely suggest people be extremely weary of UrbanEdge Developments in Victoria.

We haven't moved in yet, have just been advised by the secretary (the builder himself doesn't call us anymore) that there is a 3 week wait on our carpet, even though we gave them our carpet selection almost 2 months ago. I don't know how they sleep at night. Other problems we've had are:

1. NO cutlery drawers installed in the kitchen!! This has since been rectified however we are still waiting for the correct kick panel to be installed.

2. Being invoiced for the excavation, breakup and removal of rock 5 MONTHS after the fact.

3. Being advised by our builder to give notice to our landlord as completion was imminent, only to be told the week we were supposed to be moving that there would be a further two week delay.

4. The two week delay above was due to the garage door. The one we originally chose was a 4 week delay so we chose another to get into the house asap - then 2 weeks later we find there is a 2 week delay on our second choice, which meant we could have got our first choice in the first place.

5. Construction has been going for 10 months and likely to be another month at least.

There are many more instances, if anyone is considering building with them, feel free to PM me for further details. Wouldn't wish this experience on anyone.

ladyice · May 25, 2006 5:15 pm

Hi Mek...
We have progressed a little bit from the last time I posted...we have shortlisted down to 4 builders...Enterprise Constructions (recommended by another member of this forum), Ravida Homes, Domicile Homes & PRM Constructions...We have checked out both Ravida & Enterprise displays last week and were very happy with their proffesionalism and friendliness..the other 2 don't have display homes but they could show us their previous works by appointment...will be meeting up with PRM this Sat and Domicile early June as the main man is away.....Nava actually told us they don't do custom homes which was odd :shock:

How are you doing? Have you confirmed a builder yet? I guess after reading Mrs. M's post we better not hurry things...we have to be sure and comfortable with what we are getting because we will be living in the house!!!!
Will update again when we progress more....
cheers...

Mrs M · May 26, 2006 11:47 am

Hello again,

Just a word of advice - have a solicitor look over your contract before you sign it!

We saw a solicitor yesterday afternoon regarding some issues with our builder (have really pushed us too far this time) and after looking through the contract his opinion was that the builder took advantage of us in some respects. If he had been able to look over the contract before we signed, we would be protected in some respects which we are now not. They're so nice and obliging when it's time to sign the contract, promising the world, you think these people are different and your experience will be good.

We did get a positive out of the meeting though, there are a couple of issues he feels we have a case for, fingers crossed!

Good luck ladyice! Hope you have a fantastic experience with your builder and make an exception to the 'un'written rule

builda · Jun 13, 2006 9:17 am

Dissappointing to read of all the crappy builders that are still out in the market place. Most are not, ourselves included but our professional reputations are continually tarnished by the cowboys.

For consumers there appears to be no key consumer advocacy anymore where you can take your concerns. Once the State Government privatised Builders Warranty Insurance, and then HIH collapsed it seems that the scammers have just taken over. The problem is that no-one is policiing the industry properly.

In Victoria it is supposed to be the Building Commission but they are useless. Even Consumer Affairs Victoria will only support you if your issue falls within current Government policy. Unfortunately many consumers fall through the cracks.

Others have mentioned the Builders Collective of Australia in this forum and although a builder lobby group, have become a major consumer advocacy for these sorts of issues. It seems this is because there are no other consumer advocates currently in the market but the industry is crying out for them.

These are the only ones that I know of:

http://www.builderscollective.org.au/andris.html

http://www.hoag.org.au/

http://www.barg.com.au/

There are so many issues to be aware of when building. It is a huge investment and if something sounds too good to be true...then it probably is.

newhome · Jun 13, 2006 9:49 am

Hi guys
Handover done.

My first home, and all i can say is it could have been better. A few minor issues that needs to be rectified and as I expected straight after my last progress payment, i will be struggling to get their lazy butts to do anything. Does anyone have any ideas on what threats i can use to get them to do things ( i get the best response from them with threats)? Previously they wanted the money, unfortunately i dont have that leverage anymore. Any ideas would be appreciated. Thanks all.

builda · Jun 13, 2006 10:37 am

Always difficult however you need to move fast and work on a number of levels.

First, if the builder is in the HIA or MBA or both - then write to them today and complain and get them to put pressure on the builder to do the right thing. Both of these organisations sell their 'brand' as either the 'best in the business' (HIA) or " masters of our trade" (MBA).

Note this recent piece in the Hobart Mercury that gives you some idea as to how they purport to back up their members and their members clients.

http://www.builderscollective.org.au/News/tm230506.pdf

Second, write to OFT (are you in NSW? If Victoria then contact BACV 1300 557 559 ) immediately and lodge a complaint and ask for an urgent mediation to start getting any and all issues settled quickly and cheaply.

Don't get legal advice yet. It can escalate into a full blown drama where you could spend tens of thousands of dollars and still not get your house fixed. For example, check out this disaster where this lady has spent nearly $200,000 at arbitration and still not got her house fixed.

http://www.builderscollective.org.au/News/adv170406.pdf

I'm not trying to scare you but you (and everyone else) needs to be aware of the pitfalls. You may well need to go down a legal route but hold off for as long as you can - only use it as a last resort.

Good luck!

mek · Jun 13, 2006 11:35 am

builda, lots of useful info from you. We are about to choose our builder, as we don't know anybody who previously built with them, what do you recommend is the best way to go to make sure they deliver quality? Who do we call? We plan to ask the builders themselves but I suppose they would only give us details of home owners who were happy with their work? Is quality of their display homes a good indicator, would that alone suffice? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.

builda · Jun 13, 2006 11:53 am

True, it is difficult to get unbiased information from the source.

The best option is, I beleive references and they need to be able to supply references going back a few years. That is, how happy are the long term customers - as well as the short term ones.

Lets not be naive, we all have projects and clients that we would prefer not to parade in public but generally if a builder struggles to come up with a decent list of up to 10 references over a longer time period then it does raise issues. In the end, the best reference for a builder is one of your own friends that you can trust.

Also, call the Building Commission, Call CAV and see if there are any complaints and if worse comes to worse pump the builders name into Findlaw and see if they have any judgements against them at VCAT or if they are a regular visitor there.

It is certainly buyer beware and size is no guarantee of quality. Display homes can be misleading as well.

Most important that before you sign contracts that ALL the variables are removed eg: Prime Cost and Provisional sums and make sure that there are no special conditions that will allow the builder to add stuff later. MAKE SURE that the specification corroborates with the drawings so that there is no confusion.

You need to eliminate as many areas as possible where you can get stitched up so make sure that everything eg: fixtures, lights, door knobs, cornice, architraves etc are selected before you sign - don't be lazy and leave it for later as you will be forced to make a decision (usually a bad one) under pressure later.

Many people try and save money by supplying there own taps, door knobs, lights etc but it ends up usually causing more problems than you save. Get the builder to supply and fit everything - that way it is all his (or her!) responsibility to fix it if it fails. Otherwise the arguments will start and are not easily resolved. Yeah OK, you may pay an extra 10% for it but it is a small price to pay in order to pin the tail on the donkey!

Don't worry, over 20 years experience in renovations and extensions and we have learnt from bitter experience ourselves!

mek · Jun 13, 2006 6:55 pm

builda, thanks, much appreciated.

ozken · Jun 13, 2006 11:20 pm

Mek,
Has it occurred to you that the builder you choose, has to be a licensed builder, and as such must have pre approval for attaining the HWI insurance from the insurer and the Victorian building commission/Dept Fair Trading... .before he can legally contract to the public.
Here we have a situation whereby a new member of the public is getting his first house built, and even before his builder has a chance to perform, you are reaching for the complaints, and you don't even know the person.. How ridiculous. He might turn out to be the number one builder for the public... fair go...
You are like a bunch of kids, will he hurt me, how can I get back at him... etc... Who the hell would want to deal with this lot..

Honesty is the best approach, if you have any reservations or doubts, then speak to him for Christ's sake. If you cannot communicate freely with each other then the **** will hit the fan.. Be open, be honest, and good luck.. But wait until something does go wrong before yelling for help..

Best regards Ken

mek · Jun 14, 2006 2:24 pm

Hi Ken, it might sound ridiculous to you, but all I really want to do is to the best of my abilities make sure that we are getting a competent person to to the job. From the stories so far (even just on this forum) I can see that even builders who are properly registered sometimes do not do a good job - would you agree on this one?
Do you think getting details of builder's past work is a waste of time?
Do you think educating myself about what to do if things do go wrong is also a waste of time?
I might sound like a whingeing kid to you but I would like to get what I pay for. Is that unreasonable?
I'm assuming you're a builder (and a bit sick of whingeing customers like me) so if you have any good advice for me I'm willing to listen.

newhome · Jun 14, 2006 4:20 pm

I think its better to be safe than sorry.
stuff the builder's feelings becuase i learnt too late that there is no use being polite and trusting of these guys. trust me you dont want to regret not being a hard ***. although like i mentioned before my issues are not major, but i get the feeling that they took advantage of my trust, and i hate being wrong in my judgement.

Adrian B · Jun 14, 2006 8:26 pm

mek

Hi Ken, it might sound ridiculous to you, but all I really want to do is to the best of my abilities make sure that we are getting a competent person to to the job. From the stories so far (even just on this forum) I can see that even builders who are properly registered sometimes do not do a good job - would you agree on this one?
Do you think getting details of builder's past work is a waste of time?
Do you think educating myself about what to do if things do go wrong is also a waste of time?
I might sound like a whingeing kid to you but I would like to get what I pay for. Is that unreasonable?
I'm assuming you're a builder (and a bit sick of whingeing customers like me) so if you have any good advice for me I'm willing to listen.

HI Mek, put it this way.

When I buy a TV, I find out about it, its details, benefits and flaws, and ask people, and then make a decision.

I did the same thing when buying a house. $500 or 205000, it was of no difference.
I did a lot of homework, asked a lot of questions, and the builder I dealt with did not seem ** off with that. I asked over a dozen people about thei experiences with this builder, and even went to some of their homes. I even asjked people as they came out of their head office.

Yes, make sure you get a competent person to do the job, and you can protect yourself in several ways, including writing into the contract that you want to get independant inspections at certain parts of contruction, and that you will not pay invoice on stages until such inspections are satisfactorily complete.

If a builder has a problem with that, then dont use them.

Remeber you are the customer, its your house and you will be paying a lot of money for it.

When it comes to spening six figures, and putting yourself in debt for many a decade, there is no such thing as a dumb answer mate.If you dont understand it, ask again, or take someone with you. That helped me a lot. Get someone to rerad your contracts as well.

Good luck.

Adrian B

ozken · Jun 14, 2006 9:46 pm

Mek.
I am probably just as sceptical about a lot of people in all industries, and as you I will always try to ensure that I am on the right track, and would like to be 110% sure that I have chosen wisely, but on the same token. no one can be absolutely sure of too much these days, make your enquiries , you would be foolish not to.

But what worries me is not the honest attempts by yourself to secure the best reasonable result, the truth of your efforts will only be realized when the project is being performed and or completed.

The biggest problem being usually a person downgrading everyone in a very bitter attitude, and subsequently misleading all that are not aware.

There are a lot of builders and clients out there that are problematic, they deserve each other, but there are a lot out there that are not, and do not deserve the ratings being bestowed upon them.

The biggest culprit in the industry being the administration of the authorities, how can they possibly reasonably explain the illegal actions by some of their own staff in the processes of issuing ******* licenses, over one hundred and ten of em, that they purport to know of, how many more are still operating??.

Like that famous statement from one of it's senior work cover chiefs, issuing ******* tickets, quote" I am like a prostitute, you can buy anything off me". That was on national TV.. They then try to put the blame elsewhere.

If they performed their jobs properly, there would be no repeat offenders operating for years on end..

So if a contractor gets a ******* customer, he cannot get a fair go from the so called "Fair Trading...
Because they maintain that they are there for the benefit and protection of the consumer ,not the builders...
What the hell are we.. Non consumers.

So, like I said, decide 100% what you want in the construction of your house, finishes etc.. before you commit to a contract.

Avoid the interruption or additional cost of variations... And go for it with the builder of your choice...

Regards Ken..

smw2010 · Jun 16, 2006 12:33 pm

windowexpert

Hi Dobly,

If you build again, try to find a building company with some European background ( there are many Europeans with building background in Australia)
Ideally you want an architect with European qualification or at least some experience there.
When it comes to building standards in Oz and NZ they are amongst the lowest in the developed world. But many builders and architect are too narrow minded to think in a different direction

and they rather carry on with the same old rubbish.

Sad but thats the reality :cry:

HI, can you tell me where to find Eupean builders in Australia? I live at Sydney.

WithoutAClue · Jun 17, 2006 11:50 pm

With constant bashings going on in this forum, any chance of naming names ?
What about those satisfied customers, can you name the builders or at least the companies ?
I just want to avoid being ripped-off by some ******* builders out there.

Hear from both sides soon.

builda · Jun 19, 2006 9:59 am

99% of builders are fine, but we can all have a bad day just the same.

The problem is that the 1% of bad ones take up 99% of the media attention, hence the problem can seem bigger than it actually is and scare potential consumers such as yourself. Entirely understandable just the same.

As per my earlier post on this topic, your best defence is to take an active role in managing the project and ensuring that all your documentation and selections are up to scratch - BEFORE you sign.

Don't be lazy and just leave it to the builder because you trust him - it is your money and if things aren't exactly as you want then there will be problems.

My experience is that this can occur regardless of how good, trustworthy or how impeccable a record the builder has. The problems occur when there is deficient communication both written and oral. We all on both sides like to take the easy option but the building process is hard work in the communication stakes. Don't take the easy option if you want to avoid disappointment.

A successful final outcome means that you as the owner need to spend a lot of time actually deciding what you want on every issue. That is, you need to know before you sign, exactly what it is you are paying for. If you don't then you are leaving yourself open to a dispute.

Building disputes can be far too easy to get into, but it is just as easy to work to avoid the obvious problems. That is, fix the obvious difficulties before you start, then the big issues will be genuine 'unforeseens' and you will not be so preoccupied with all the minor stuff ('cos you already fixed it pre-contract) to focus on solving the really important big issues that will crop up.

Good luck!

tinaack · Jun 19, 2006 11:21 pm

We have been building for over 2 years and have no end of trouble with our builder, I live in perth and would like to hear from others in the same situation and the name of the builders. Please feel free to send me an email. Then i won't feel soooo bad!........

Thxs tinaack

builda · Jun 20, 2006 8:51 am

Very sorry to hear that your experience has been difficult. The WA Government prides themselves on operating a 'state of the art' consumer protection regime to avoid such incidents but I have always been skeptical of their claims and tend to associate them with the sort of spin doctoring that all Governments participate in these days.

Have you contacted the Dept of Consumer and Employment Protection (DOCEP)? If not, call them on 1300 304 054 and get them involved to sort out the builder if they are being recalcitrant.

Very interested to know how you go and whether or not they simply push you into a private litigation. When you think about it, if the Government is licensing builders then they have to take some responsibility for making the bad ones finish the job for the agreed price. If the builder cannot operate under those simple contractual obligations then they should be pushed out of the industry by the regulator.

Unfortunately the attitude of Government is that you (the user) has to pay via private litigation, to do what is essentially their responsibility in the first place.

Please give it the DOCEP option a go, but if you already have and failed then please let us know.