Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Feb 10, 2009 6:59 pm New poster here. I've been reading for a while but never had the need to post till now. I figured I'd post this because, while I've seen a few posts about PD Access, and plenty about Lifestyle and Prestige, I've never read any about the joys of working out what you're entitled to when you're buying Smart Living.
We recently (November) put a deposit on a fixed house and land package, to build a Smart Living house (Lawson II) by Porter Davis in the Evadene development at Tarneit. For my husband and I, this is the first experience we've had with building a home or owning one, and we don't have children, so we were happy to go with a house on the smaller side. That being said, we aren't completely naive. I used to work for a home company, he works in the building industry, and my father worked for AV Jennings when I was a child and teenager, as a Site Supervisor (and yes, even he hates them). Pretty much from the moment we signed our first forms and handed over $1k each to Porter Davis and Evadene, there were miscommunications all around. All the PD people here have undoubtedly dealt with Hopetoun Interiors, and it remains a mystery how we could have visited HI four times prior to our colour appointment, and four times been told (after telling them each time which house we had chosen and which range it had come from) a variety of what turned out to be Completely Wrong Things... even as recently as the day before our colour appointment (which was yesterday). It became a sort of mantra at one point. "Oh, Hopetoun are going to call you this week, for sure," was repeated each time someone from PD rang us to ask when our colour appointment would be (in order to schedule a contract appt) and were surprised to find out that Hopetoun hadn't even called us yet. PD's home building processes suggest that your colour appointment should be within a couple of weeks of your initial appointment. We signed on November 23. They finally called us in late January. But we had visited Hopetoun on various weekends and made our choices according to their advice. Their, well, wrong advice. It can't even be blamed on one particular hostess (though one dealt with us more than the others did), because on Sunday three of them stood there agreeing on some information that turned out to be astoundingly wrong. One thing of particular note for anyone who decides to build a Smart Living house is that if you hear your salesperson or colour hostess utter anything along the lines of "But Access IS Smart Living!" is that you should run away immediately because they've no idea what they're on about. Yes, they're less expensive. Yes, they're coded red. But the promos and innovations are different, and so are the inclusions (which are absolutely nothing). You will probably find that if you are building Smart Living, you can choose things from the Access range (because HI only have Access, Lifestyle and Prestige stickers), but only SOME of the things, and you should really, really prod the hostesses to clarify which things. Unless it sounds like you're being completely ripped off, the information is probably incorrect. Among the things that turned out to be completely untrue: 1. First visit and all subsequent visits to Port Melbourne Hopetoun, we were told that we could choose any of the bricks marked Category 1. ANY. Whether they be Boral or Austral, regardless of wall side. Yesterday, our colour consultant emphatically informed us that this was incorrect, and that we could choose from Boral only. This was unfortunate: we'd chosen Austral. So, we had to revise and get rid of Austral Urban Edge Nougat and replace it with Boral Riverside Tanami. Our colour consultant raised her eyebrows at this piece of information and it only got worse. Eventually she told us to start making a list of the information we were told to write into our customer feedback forms. Later, she wanted us to name names regarding the crimes of misinformation (oh no)! 2. We were informed that our facade choice allowed us to pick stack stones for our front columns. Not true. And in fact, our facade choice, which, according to our original salesperson and all colour hostesses up till colour appointment, was supposed to constitute most of the front portion of the house (up to a total of 20% of the whole exterior), only included our portico itself and the front portico piers. So the front windows would not be rendered at all, and this made a significant difference to how our house was going to look. One of the things I picked up rather early on is that Porter Davis has scant public information available for which design features actually constitute their facades, and which are upgrades on the photos designed to suit the style of the facade. And none of the salespeople actually seem to know until the point where the colour consultant says, "Oh no, it's only that bit and that bit there...!" 3. We were repeatedly told our default basin for the bathroom was the regular default basin, but that our ensuite could be the default basin or any of four others, as part of the promo. While our colour consultant yesterday kept saying, "If in doubt, refer to your promo text," this isn't strictly helpful, since promo texts only refer to some things in vague wording... "Choice of designer vanity units and basins" for example, in our promo, is misleading in many ways. So, our ensuite basin is an upgrade. 4. We were told we could have our sink in either stainless steel or brushed chrome. Now, apparently, as of 2009, the brushed chrome has "never existed" (despite it having been on last year's wall) and stainless steel is our only choice. Fine, whatever. 5. We were advised (repeatedly) that we could pick "any colours in the entire Wattyl interior range" for our interior colours. Really? No, actually not. It turns out that the approximately 30 colours in the little booklet that we originally got were the only colours we could pick from. The Wattyl Interior Design (ID) range turns out to be an upgrade. And some of them we aren't even ALLOWED to have. I find it startling that we couldn't actually choose a basic white for architraves and skirtings. The only so-called whites were definite beiges. For those, we gave in. For our wall colour, Vanilla Cream, our colour consultant informed us she'd "investigate" whether we were "allowed" to have it, and after telling us we could, cheerfully informed us that all feature walls would be a minimum of $240 per wall plus the cost of upgrading the colour to a non-basic range. 6. We argued at length over what to do about this supposed glass splashback that we didn't want but couldn't seem to get rid of. Each colour hostess prior to the colour appointment praised the splashback, the fact it was now available to Access/Smart Living. We wanted to get rid of it. We wanted tiling. Finally, in the fine print of our promo, we discovered we were allowed to have tiling. Finally, on the morning of our colour appointment, we were informed the splashback had never been part of Smart Living. And here's the thing, as to how you can be confused even by what's written down: some items aren't spelled out clearly, some things are included without being listed, and some things are open to interpretation. And when you have someone who spends their weekdays helping people choose their official colours all for ONE COMPANY, you expect that if they tell you on three different occasions that this is how it is, then that's REALLY how it is. So we don't have a splashback, but we wished we hadn't been persuaded to spend two months arguing about it. When you ask the weekend hostesses, "Are you sure?" and they say yes, be assured that they aren't sure, but they don't particularly care about not being sure because it's not dire until contract appointment time, and what they're really concerned about is moving on to the next confused couple and fake-smiling at them. 7. The laundry trough. The bloody laundry trough. My husband isn't familiar with the freestanding variety of crap trough that comes with the promos (the 45L thing). I knew it immediately, that we'd be getting a freestanding one without a benchtop. He insisted it had to be otherwise. I mean, for a start, he said, he'd never heard of such things (being an American) and for second... The photo included with the promo listing in the Smart Living brochure included a built-in with a benchtop. I insisted it must be the freestanding. We drove out to Point Cook PD on Sunday, after leaving Hopetoun for our last look at things prior to yesterday... and our original sales guy in the display home centre clarified for us: it was DEFINITELY, DEFINITELY the built-in laundry trough with the benchtop and cupboards beneath. He and my husband looked at each other like I was a foolish person for thinking it would be otherwise. Our colour consultant yesterday advised us, again emphatically, that this was totally wrong. And it did turn out to be the ugly freestanding white unit I'd thought it would be. Oh well. The CC and I got to look at my husband for a while like he was foolish for thinking it would be otherwise. 8. We were told the first two times at Hopetoun Interiors that we had a stone benchtop in the kitchen. I pointed to my promo the third time: "But I'm sure it's not! I'm sure it's a laminate benchtop!" Yes. It's a laminate benchtop. But it turns out we could have used either the formica selection or the laminex, NOT just the laminex. The first time we'd visited we'd had a hostess pretty much pretend the entire wall of formica samples next to the laminex samples was invisible. Our doors, she said, could be anything in the laminex range... just not a marble grain. And up till yesterday, somehow, we kept being told we could use any type of grain for the wrap on the benchtops, except for woodgrain. HUH?! (Thankfully, we managed to get this clarified and have Formica Nordic Birch doors and benchtops in both bathrooms. HA!) 9. The bath provided is, although by the same manufacturer, actually different to what's listed in the quotation/promo. It's still by Decina, but it's larger and from a different range. So it becomes difficult to "always refer to your promos" when the promos still feature incorrect information. 10. The Hand Held Invigra promo for the ensuite shower is no longer included as the actual item. We still get a hand held shower rose, but it's not the one listed, and it's actually in our specs as "Sonata Shower on Rail". Again: the promos are gospel, except they're not gospel, and we shouldn't call them on it, only we should call them on it... Obviously, in the scheme of it, these are minor things, but still... they caused plenty of confusion and disagreement. We've had similar confusion with National Tiles. I remember reading on Perry's blog some time ago that the National Tiles standard builders range was quite large, so most people would be able to find things without needing upgrades. Well, after the people at National Tiles called us in December and told us they had no free tile appointments available till late Feb (ours is the 25th), we were a bit annoyed. We also had it communicated to us at various times that we weren't actually ALLOWED to visit the showroom in Port Melbourne, that the only time we could go there for any reason was a maximum of one hour prior to our official appointment. Even the appointment letter stipulated we could browse only then. On Sunday at Hopetoun, they told us they were under the impression people could go in just for a browse-- but only EVER on Saturdays. Yesterday, our electrical appointment took us all of 20 minutes (we'd done our research, so all we had to do was have the consultant input the extras), so we had about 2 hours to kill till our colour appointment. We decided to drive over to National Tiles to see what the deal really was, in the hopes of previewing the range and were remarkably surprised that actually, we were allowed to check it out at any time. The misinformation came from a combination of the scant information on the NT brochure, the scant information on the NT website, the misinformation on our appointment letter, and the impatience of the consultant from NT who booked our appointment, whose already irritated mood seemed to be aggravated when I told her we couldn't take the appointment she'd chosen for us by default and to find something else. (I'm sorry... the people who build houses are generally employed during standard work hours. How is it rational to expect them to endanger their employment by repeatedly taking days off for housing appointments?) So at National Tiles yesterday, the default tiles were, well, largely ugly, colourless and boring. Anyone who isn't at this stage yet (though I'm sure most of you are): the "rear wall" of standard tiles is the tiny wall that's about 3m in length and 2m high. Laying tiles in anything OTHER than a stacked style is an upgrade of labour costs. Laying any other tiles, particularly not in a stacked style, is an upgrade of labour costs and tile choice. Even feature tiles to the right of that wall are an upgrade, though it's a pitifully small selection of tiles (1.5 high by about 1.2m wide), which we found entirely too unattractive to bother with. From the time we spent there, we worked out that our floor tiles would be standard, but with a labour charge. In fact, all the tiles that were standard would have to be laid in a brick style, incurring a labour charge, and the only feature tiles we liked weren't on ANY of the walls, they were off in a little cabinet full of samples, so until Feb 25 we'll have no idea of how much it'll cost us to buy and lay those. Honestly, the selection was dismal, and that selection applies to all PD houses unless you purchase a promo that includes a tile upgrade. Our tiles will have to be done in a post-contract variation, because our contract appointment is next week, and as much as I would prefer to have the tiles done by then, I'd also like to have a proper idea of what our current upgrades are going to cost, and we've been told, "You'll only know, exactly, on contract signing day." Oy. I think this kind of stuff is fairly standard when it comes to building. I used to deal with people who were irate about being told they could have X, Y or Z if they wanted, without having been told by the interior designer that sure, they could have it if they WANTED, but it would cost them. So, I do have a couple of questions. People who've upgraded their tile in terms of labour costs, how much did it cost you (per sqm, or however they worked it out)? Our house is 22.3 squares, but we're only tiling the wet areas. We're going to be going for a horizontal brick-laid style on at least our floors and our kitchen and laundry splashback areas, but probably on our shower walls as well. Because we have to wait till after contracts to do tiling, has anyone had the experience of including a variation allowance? Basically, we included a $1000 electrical allowance in our initial quote (it ended up being $1870), and we've already inserted at least 3k worth of additional upgrades during the colour appointment. Is it possible or desirable to insert a tiling variance allowance of say, 2k, during contracts, to minimise post-contract variations? ...And despite the fact we were posted our Porter Davis 24/7 login information over a month ago, the login still doesn't work. I mentioned it to our CSO last week. "Oh. It should be working," was her official response, so I suppose I'll have to have them clarify it in person next week. Oy. So, have other people discovered the difficulty of working out what your entitlements are with Smart Living, even after reading the fine print of quotations and everything else? And just where can I get a carpet sample from? Even the CC yesterday seemed unsure of whether I could or should go to Glendale carpets or Macey's or Godfrey Hirst (we picked Cat 1 Reflections: Ambrosia), and she advised us that if we go anywhere to get a sample to assist with tile selection we "shouldn't tell them" we're from Porter Davis, as they're less likely to help. This is fabulous, because the tile selection letter suggests that we bring in samples and paint chips to help coordinate. Oh dear. I think one of the issues, actually, has been that the 2008/09 changeover for Hopetoun didn't ONLY lead to "some minor changes with basins and tapware", but with quite a few things, just like different baths and different shower roses in promotions. We knew the changes had been larger than they'd indicated. Our original brick was, last year, listed as Cat 1: Access, Lifestyle or Prestige. We visited twice before the new year and we had it reiterated that we could use these bricks. Yesterday, we discovered they'd become Prestige only, and that, supposedly, we'd never been entitled to use non-Boral bricks at all, even when they were listed as Access and Lifestyle. Has anyone else discovered they're entitled to different things, now? Re: Misinformation and building a house. 2Feb 10, 2009 7:05 pm Lazywriterbum…….obviously NOT so lazy! Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 3Feb 10, 2009 7:23 pm lazywriterbum And just where can I get a carpet sample from? Even the CC yesterday seemed unsure of whether I could or should go to Glendale carpets or Macey's or Godfrey Hirst (we picked Cat 1 Reflections: Ambrosia), and she advised us that if we go anywhere to get a sample to assist with tile selection we "shouldn't tell them" we're from Porter Davis, as they're less likely to help. This is fabulous, because the tile selection letter suggests that we bring in samples and paint chips to help coordinate. Oh dear. I think if you go to any carpet shop, as long as they have what you have chose, you will get good service. Having to have to drop the builders name will not get you better service. This is one of the most fascinating posts I have read in a long time! Well done!! Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 5Feb 10, 2009 7:27 pm OMG, I started reading this thinking, ok, let's go, and then after a minute I realised, this would require 10 mins!
You poor thing, without having read the full thread yet, I will say that it is always a huge source of fascination to me how these building companies (and I mean all of them - big and small) can keep making so obvious and avoidable mistakes and then somehow feel justified in doing so when we the customer identify them. It is just pathetic and unacceptable. This industry could do with a watchdog (with venom) and a dispute resolution centre (and I'm not talking about VCAT which is based on law) I'm talking about a "round table" environment that is based on ethics and common sense, one that encourages discussion and quick turnaround and resolution so all parties involved can move on. Because let's face it, if you can't move on, you probably can't move in! "I have a dream..." Annie A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Misinformation and building a house. 6Feb 10, 2009 7:32 pm lazywriterbum And just where can I get a carpet sample from? Even the CC yesterday seemed unsure of whether I could or should go to Glendale carpets or Macey's or Godfrey Hirst (we picked Cat 1 Reflections: Ambrosia), and she advised us that if we go anywhere to get a sample to assist with tile selection we "shouldn't tell them" we're from Porter Davis, as they're less likely to help. This is fabulous, because the tile selection letter suggests that we bring in samples and paint chips to help coordinate. Oh dear. Don't go to Macey's as they are in liquidation and should not be trading....they took my money...Hope that everything from now on goes well for you... Sharon & Paul ********************* Creating Youngs Castle Heywood 29 in Craigieburn http://youngscastle.blogspot.com/ Re: Misinformation and building a house. 7Feb 10, 2009 7:35 pm Annietom . Because let's face it, if you can't move on, you probably can't move in! "I have a dream..." Annie Thats so true!!! This post is full of a clever wit! Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 8Feb 10, 2009 7:38 pm I find the whole process with PD overwhelming and some what disappointing. Everything even basics can be upgrades.. Floor plans a great but the upgrades are wallet gouging even in the "Prestige" range basic things like window locks are upgrades, or colourbond guttering... that is what I find most disappointing
We are building a Hayman in the "Prestige" range and I will be damned if my colour selections are going to be limited to that booklet. My partner will be devastated to hear that to get the paint colours we've settled on (which are not in that booklet - Wattyl finishing touches) are an extra charge or heaven forbid we cannot have them.... Anyone else got any experience to share RE the paint colours? *edit* Just pulled out that booklet to find there is not even a white in the list, surely that cannot be all? Re: Misinformation and building a house. 9Feb 10, 2009 7:45 pm Michelle Annietom . Because let's face it, if you can't move on, you probably can't move in! "I have a dream..." Annie Thats so true!!! This post is full of a clever wit! did I hear the word "clever" to describe my ramblings, lol A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Misinformation and building a house. 10Feb 10, 2009 7:51 pm Zerosignal My partner will be devastated to hear that to get the paint colours we've settled on (which are not in that booklet - Wattyl finishing touches) are an extra charge or heaven forbid we cannot have them.... I’ve got that booklet……you don’t want hear my thoughts on it. Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 11Feb 10, 2009 7:55 pm I upgraded my paint to Wattyl ID, partly because I wanted 3 coats and partly because I wanted to use colours not in the finishing touch brochure.
In saying that though there are a number of people on this forum who have used colours that are not in the Finishing Touch brochure and they were not charged anything to upgrade their paint as far as I know! My karma ran over your dogma Re: Misinformation and building a house. 12Feb 10, 2009 7:58 pm Zerosignal Just pulled out that booklet to find there is not even a white in the list, surely that cannot be all? Yep no true white to be seen, lucky we decided we were not having any white but did think it was very strange that it would be an upgrade to have white.....may if you wanted it you could ask for the ceiling white!? HI CC-"Oh sorry thats not allowed" Re: Misinformation and building a house. 13Feb 10, 2009 8:00 pm I have to say….if you have a spare 15 minutes to read this post, by the NOT so lazy writer bum……it’s great!
I thought at first, “oh no here we go, another post I have to moderate” ……but, I think it’s very informative! Bel…..I guess it depends who you are building with. Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 15Feb 10, 2009 8:23 pm haywgl But Mich I am building with PD too Another inconsistancy perhaps? Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 16Feb 10, 2009 8:57 pm Huh. We built Prestige and had a lot of misinformation and lousy customer service too, so don't feel special.
We had the same issue with paint colours, but I absolutely insisted that I hated all the colours with a white base, which were the only ones we were "allowed" to have. I got my way, but it cost us a bit in upgrades as we went for ID throughout and a different colour in some rooms. Well worth it in my book... Tiles. I went to NT at Sunshine and got samples. Lots of samples. I even got some QQ samples. Didn't tell them I was building with PD. In the end, we found the consultant at our tile appointment really helpful. We managed to choose our main tiles for floors and shower walls from the standard range. Can't help with cost for extra labour, because ours were square 300mm tiles, so there was none. We did choose feature tiles - a vertical pebble strip in each shower and two different feature tiles for the vanity splashbacks. One feature tile wasn't even on display, the consultant went and brought some from out the back somewhere, since we didn't like most of what was on offer... the total cost for the upgrades was only $500. If you only need a small quantity, it can be quite cheap, even when you choose an expensive tile. I can't see any reason why you can't have an allowance included for tile upgrades. Even if they say no, keep asking - we found that with a lot of things, if you're persistent, eventually someone will say yes. I hope your experience improves. It's a common complaint that inclusions and upgrades for the various ranges aren't clear. How hard could it be to come up with a detailed list for each that PD staff can refer to? misinformation 17Feb 10, 2009 9:21 pm Hi, we have just finished all our house selections and I can totally empathise. We are building with M and our experience wasn't a lot better. We also found the communication to be terrible. We got told by our sales consultant we could do certain things (like have a bricked out enclosure for a future fireplace), could delete certain things and get a refund (eg-promotional splashback, using only cat 1 caesarstone instead of the cat 2 allowance) and told what prices things would be for upgrades and ended up being much higher. Even when we went for color selections we were told prices for things, and then when our contract came they were so much more. Our color consultant told us it would be $800 to upgrade to selkirk bricks which has now been $1300, a flyscreen for the bifold doors would be $1500-2000 but was $3200!, We would repeatedly ask for things but the plans kept turning up without them done-and then they would make out it was our fault they weren't on the plans. It goes on and on....I know how frustrating it is. I'm hoping it can improve during the building process..... Re: Misinformation and building a house. 18Feb 10, 2009 9:24 pm Makes my little reno look inviting.
Good grief! Internal and External Building and Colour Consultant Online - Worldwide http://www.denovoconcepts.com Re: Misinformation and building a house. 19Feb 10, 2009 9:32 pm I;ve read the whole post, and I can understand your complete dissatisfaction and frustration with how your journey has been so far with PD.
What I can't understand is if you know this is the way this company works, why are you continuing with them? You haven't even signed contracts yet. Get out while you can!!! ahhh, easier said than done I spose! Good luck... Annie A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Misinformation and building a house. 20Feb 10, 2009 10:09 pm Annietom I;ve read the whole post, and I can understand your complete dissatisfaction and frustration with how your journey has been so far with PD. What I can't understand is if you know this is the way this company works, why are you continuing with them? You haven't even signed contracts yet. Get out while you can!!! ahhh, easier said than done I spose! Good luck... Annie Floorplan is the only reason we've stuck with PD to date. We have even considered going to the lifestyle range as these homes represent FAR better value per sqm than prestige. Hi All It has been a few weeks since my last update. The build has been progressing well. No major issues to report. The scaffolding was dropped today, gyprock will be… 96 357035 Building a fence now will help limit people dumping rubbish and soil on your property. Many houses in suburbia on small lots have fences up before a build. I moved into a… 1 4410 No idea about the driveway question, but your price for a house that size including landscaping seems very good! 1 6166 |