Browse Forums General Discussion 1 Jan 29, 2009 12:50 pm Hello everyone! *waves*
Does anyone have any recommendations on Melbourne draftsman? Do you know roughly how much it costs to get a house design made up? I think its called "working drawings" or something, but I have no idea! George and I are debating whether to get our house design done now, or wait 12 months til we build Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 2Jan 29, 2009 1:02 pm I would say around $50 per square is a fair price for a decent draftsperson.
But in my opinion you need to work backwards. Ie work out what you want to spend and what time of house you want to end up with. Then once you know that you will then pick a draftsperson accordingly. I wouldnt recommned going for draft person because of the small price he charges. When quoting for drafts people make sure you also quote cost for Soil test, energy reports, engineering etc. This is because some draftpeople etc dont have good contacts and while one draftperson can be cheap they can over charge you for the other items. I dont know how big your house is however i will say the following is a good guide. Plans and working drawing 1500-$2000 Soil Report 250-$300 Energy Rating 150-$200 Engineering 300-$600 Permits (1500) The above should serve as a guide and maybe trigger some more questions. i note the comment "I have no idea" btw if your not sure as to what you want and want to draw the house up slowly and make many changes it can easily take upto six months for you to have permits. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 3Jan 29, 2009 3:33 pm We paid out nearly $4k for our drawings and they were only second draft, not completed working drawings. We hadn't even begun discussing electrical plans etc. Our builder then started quoting prices way above his original estimate and the money spent was wasted as we had to walk away. We had a fixed price for working drawings and the original sketches etc were charged at an hourly rate. Had we continued there would have been additional charges for other services down the line too. We did have a quote upfront laying out all the charges so you could at least approach a couple of different companies and get them to put together a quote for you.
At least you'd know what to expect then and you can make your own judgement if it's worth it and the route you want to take. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 4Jan 29, 2009 3:52 pm Thanks for your replies
What type of things should we look for when getting quotes other than whats already been mentioned (energy rating, engineering etc)? Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 5Jan 29, 2009 7:12 pm we are building our house which we designed the rough layouyt and the draftsman does the rest. We got ours of the BDAV website which are registered building designers. we are paying about $4000 not including permit, but we have too and fro heaps of times and changing things all the time, and he has been fantastic whilst suggesting different ideas and incorparating ours. He is working in perth as well so don't think that you have to limit yourself to your area (he works in the mines and travels back though to our area). This price is inclusive and we don't get charged for changing it around so I would ascertain with whoever you go with, some people are willing to help you out, others will give you a price and then sting you for other changes.
I would recommend getting a draftie who uses cad on the computer as when they make a change it is easy, and they will be more inclined to do it, than someone who has to draw plans again. Cheers Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 6Jan 29, 2009 9:32 pm Am I allowed to throw in a plug for someone? This guy is very good. Works alone and I can guarantee an excellent job.
http://www.arcadiabuildingdesign.com.au/index.html Take a peek. It's a brand new website. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 7Jan 30, 2009 8:04 am ^ You have had experience with him? Or you know him?
Thanks hunt - Ill make sure that its an all-inclusive price and arent any hidden extras And ill make sure they have CAD too Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 9Jan 31, 2009 2:05 am After 2 false starts, a year living overseas, two more world trips and 3 years of uncertainty we are now starting the build process again - hopefully for real this time! Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 10Jan 31, 2009 6:52 am hunts01 I would recommend getting a draftie who uses cad on the computer as when they make a change it is easy, and they will be more inclined to do it, than someone who has to draw plans again. I just have to go a little bit off topic here to talk about CAD. It has certainly revolutionised drafting and there is no comparison between having to revise a drawing on a drawing board or in a CAD package; but don't think that we can change things just with a few clicks. It can be a constant source of frustration for a designer when a client wants to make some changes and expects it to be instantaneous. Moving any sort of detail on a plan invariably means making changes to other parts of the plan as well - items which reference off that detail need to be adjusted along with dimensions and notes et cetera...up to the point that some changes can mean almost redrawing the whole plan again (yes which is still easier in CAD than on a drawing board). Some packages are parametric (which basically means that everything is referenced to everything and adjusts itself if you move something) but nothing that a halfway competent draftsman is using will be, so please bear in mind that changes still take time, and people like to get paid for their time...at least I am sure most of you do. Many designers and draftsmen allow for one redraw if they provide a quote for exactly this reason. Cheers, Earl Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 11Jan 31, 2009 8:36 am I'm glad you explained that Earl, because I was wondering about all that business when we had delays with plan changes, makes more sense now!
Annie A thankful person is a happy person. [/color]My hobby design blog: http://aviewondesign.blogspot.com/ Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 12Jan 31, 2009 6:22 pm Earl, i cant say that i can agree with you. Provided the working drawing havent been done and you are only upto sketches there shouldn't be a problem with changes they should be very easy with computers.
I have made many changes with my plans writing list etc of what was wrong. Aways had issues with translation. Untill one say I suggested that we make the changes while I was there. This was one of the best things i suggested. In around 15minutes we had made around 6 changes to the house, and anything that couldnt be techinically done was discuss on the fly and a decisition made on the spot. Just to highlight these chages i am talking about are not major changes. Mainly things like shifting walls slightly changing opening sizes and making doors bigger etc. One think I have learnt to realise in this building game is no body takes the same effort and pride as you will do no matter how good they are at what they do. Thats why it is important to have someone good that you can work with to achieve the end result. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 13Jan 31, 2009 9:54 pm Borg, you'll notice I was was talking about dimensioned detail drawings, not "sketches".
I do a fair bit of retail design work, where (as I believe Pat The Draftie mentioned in another thread) one can have up to 60+ sheets of drawings specifying every aspect of the fabrication and fit out of the design. It is not uncommon for the client to instruct us to make late changes when we are at the third level of drawings (the construction set)...this is AFTER the concept set and the tender set. It is always a surprise for the client when we explain how much work it is to, say, move a door to a different place when we have ten or so sets of cabinetry, signage, lighting and electrical detail drawings that have a reference to the position of the door. I take my work very seriously and pride myself in the attention to detail in my drawings. I often work on drawing sets that other designers have prepared (concept and tender sets) and have to spend a lot of time fixing inaccuracies or oversights many of which are a result of changes that have been made at one level but not followed through the entire set of drawings; which I suppose is a good reason to have a detailer going over the plans - it certainly has a big impact on the amount of time and resources that can be otherwise lost at the construction stage when builders and installers are finding things not fitting to the plan and stand around blaming the architect or designer. The point of my post was simply to explain that CAD is not a magic tool that allows everything to be instantly changed at the press of a button - my reason for posting this was because I have frequently encountered exactly this belief. Cheers, Earl Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 14Jan 31, 2009 11:37 pm Earl in your context that makes absolute sence. I have no respect for people who change there minds once everything else has progressed.
It is very commman at sketch stage that when people ask for changes there is a two week delay. Where is true terms your changes have to go on the bottom of the list again, for it to be worked on for 30minutes. I believe we are talking about too different things here. I would hate to think how long it would take to redo your designs if they where all hand drawn. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 15Feb 01, 2009 11:06 am Thanks muzzman, that link was helpful I did a search but for some reason didnt see that one
Earl, thankyou for your post. Dont worry, I too understand how much work goes in to drawings Im not expecting anything quick anyway. Ive been giving a number of someone too - apparently did some of the designs in the Pentridge. Will give him a call as soon as our land setlles and what not Keep the suggestions coming though, Im still looking about Custom European Cabinets - Melbourne Kitchen Specialist PM for business details as website currently being updated! Our Crazy Owner Builder Journey! Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 16Feb 02, 2009 9:11 am Just to add a little here:
I do lots of jobs, from small alterations to existing dwellings to whole dwelling design and documentation. Some jobs Ive made a killing on (drawn it once, council approved and the client built it straight off that). Some jobs Ive lost a lot of money on, drawn it once then totally redrawn it 5 or six times, for the same fixed fee. Ive learnt my lesson now, no more fixed fees, I now charge by the hour. Some people get nervous about this, and rightly so, but I find a lot of people are comefortable with this fee structure once its explained: A) They understand that 'time is money', for all parties involved. B) They understand that you cannot engage a draftie with a half baked concept, you need to think your project through as much as possible. C) The farting around with changing this that and the other comes at a cost. D) When a draftie starts loosing money on a job, he starts loosing intrest on a job, and the result...you end up with crap documentation, problems on site, errors, and unclear intent. I can tell you right now those problems on site will cost you a lot more to fix than paying to get the documentation done properly in the first place. Just a thought. Pat. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 17Feb 02, 2009 9:56 am Hi Pat,
I am on this forum to learn as many other people here. So please excuse my ignorance. I ask these questions in hope that I will become better and more informed in this line of business. Also consider I am in Vic so things may be different in WA. In my comments I am taking on the view of the builder or owner. If I was to hire a draftperson to get plans drawn and passed through council I would be expecting a fixed price contract to draw final plans and working drawings. I would be ok if the draftsperson says that I will only allow one major change and 15 minor change. By Major I mean general flow of the house is changed and by minor I mean walls push in out and windows changed etc. I would expect that before working drawings are done that I have a chance as the builder or owner to make suggestion and changes as mentioned above. After all I am the one that knows my building strategy and will be building this house and therefore need to make it profitable. Sometime changes need to be made. Once I am happy with sketch(Floor Plan) I am happy to sign off the drawing for the draftsperson to then do all working drawings for submission to council. If the plans don’t pass council, I consider this the responsibility of the draftperson, which is the professional person I employ to do this job. I believe they are getting paid a high fee to ensure they pass and if they don’t I would believe this to be the fault of the draftsperson not following correct standards and procedures etc, as a builder or owner I do not believe I should be paying to fix up mistakes that haven’t pass council. I find it very difficult to hire a draftsperson or similar based on an hourly rate, as this opens up the floodgates for disputes etc, Given the above when things go through town planning, it may be a different issue. However in Vic full working drawing are not required at town planning stage. Just Floor plan and Elevations. So if changes are to be made they can be done quite quickly. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 18Feb 02, 2009 12:14 pm borg Hi Pat, I am on this forum to learn as many other people here. So please excuse my ignorance. I ask these questions in hope that I will become better and more informed in this line of business. Also consider I am in Vic so things may be different in WA. In my comments I am taking on the view of the builder or owner. If I was to hire a draftperson to get plans drawn and passed through council I would be expecting a fixed price contract to draw final plans and working drawings. I would be ok if the draftsperson says that I will only allow one major change and 15 minor change. By Major I mean general flow of the house is changed and by minor I mean walls push in out and windows changed etc. I would expect that before working drawings are done that I have a chance as the builder or owner to make suggestion and changes as mentioned above. After all I am the one that knows my building strategy and will be building this house and therefore need to make it profitable. Sometime changes need to be made. Once I am happy with sketch(Floor Plan) I am happy to sign off the drawing for the draftsperson to then do all working drawings for submission to council. If the plans don’t pass council, I consider this the responsibility of the draftperson, which is the professional person I employ to do this job. I believe they are getting paid a high fee to ensure they pass and if they don’t I would believe this to be the fault of the draftsperson not following correct standards and procedures etc, as a builder or owner I do not believe I should be paying to fix up mistakes that haven’t pass council. I find it very difficult to hire a draftsperson or similar based on an hourly rate, as this opens up the floodgates for disputes etc, Given the above when things go through town planning, it may be a different issue. However in Vic full working drawing are not required at town planning stage. Just Floor plan and Elevations. So if changes are to be made they can be done quite quickly. Borg, Im hearing you loud and clear. Im only trying to get people to understand the process a little more from my perspective. As a owner owner builder obivously your first priority is a get everything you want in your build, this I fully concur with. Which is why I charge by the hour, I am willing to change your plans 75 times if it means you are getting exactly what you want, the only difference is I am getting paid for the 75 changes, Im not trying to slam out your changes to drawings to protect my profit. When i do my projects, one of my stipulations is that i dont get paid until the project gets fully approved by council. A decent draftsman will ensure your building is fully r-code compliant and meets all local requirements, so there should be no hiccups. Youve hit the nail on the head with your comment.....'which is the professional person I employ to do this job'....drafties are professional tradespeople, would you ask a carpenter to change your whole roof around as he builds it, and expect him to charge the same price?? On disputes.....what constitutes a minor change or a major change?? To the average layman changing a window may seem like a minor change, to a draftie it will affect plans, elevations, maybe sections, window schedules and your BCA glazing calculator, possibly hours of work. Im not trying to belittle you here, but there is a preconcieved notion out in the industry that changing something in a CAD drawing is as little as pushing the 'change everything to suit the client' button. You are absolutely correct in saying that at the town planning stage the drawings are pretty rudimentary, changes are less painful. Its when you take the next step to detailed documentation that the real pain ensues from minor of major changes. Lastly, most of us drafties have your best intentions at heart and when we undertake a project, we usually take as much pride in seeing our documentation become a reality as you do. Dont treat us with distrust. Pat. Re: Draftsman - Melbourne 19Feb 02, 2009 12:18 pm Pat the more I read your words is the more we both agree that changes should not be made once floor plan has been agreed on!!!!
Once elevation, working drawings inclue roof line etc have been done ONCE there should not be any changes!!!! Prior to that has been relatively easy with drafts speople i have used. I do enjoy the drama:-D In his latest two videos he has started bringing security guards to site, I am waiting for the punch on to begin lol 6 45547 It's all about wireless, self install now. The cost/benefit of wired setups for the house are no longer what they used to be. Lots of wireless options. Eufy, Arlo and… 2 9792 I’m in a similar position except I’m after sliding 3 stacking doors. I am on a second-story apartment of which the balcony would not adequately fit any bi-fold or… 5 16148 |