Do Handle-less Drawers Sit Flush as Standard?

Hi there, quick question for anyone who may know:

My in laws are having some issues with a cabinet maker who's making their handle-less kitchen drawers. He's built their cupboards and drawers with an indent of around 55mm (that is, the drawer sits 55mm behind the edge of bench top). Thus whilst the bench-top is 600mm wide, the actual cupboards are around 540mm wide. The issue is that because the cupboards are sitting "in", there is reduced space to install the stove top and sinks, which has resulted in not enough space to cut a hole for the taps (between the sink and splash back) or have the regulation 200mm between the gas burner and splash-back.

The cabinet maker insists that the sinks and stove top are too big, however they are regular size. Our issue is that they should have consulted at the beginning on potential issues for making the cupboards and bench top that size.

They're at a loss on how to proceed. Any advise on experiences with handle-less cupboards etc would be appreciated.

Hi Mike.
Just to clarify, is the draw front or carcass sitting at 55mm back?
I normally build so my carcass sits back 40mm from front of bench. The draw then sits in front of the carcass so you end up with 20mm from front edge of bench to drawer and door fronts.
When you say handle-less do you mean push to open or there is a recessed finger pull area?

Here are a couple of photos of the job that might make it easier to understand

That looks about right; this is so spills don't end up in the drawers. Ours are similar, although they are the push-open type.

Yep agreed, we have a 20mm bench top overhang as standard. That is 20mm from the face of the drawers/doors to the edge of the bench top.

Did you in laws give the cabinet maker the appliance specs before starting??? If they did then he should have built the kitchen to fit them. There are some cooktops around that need a slightly deeper bench top (620-650 instead of 600) If they gave him the specs and they don't fit then its his responsibility to make them fit properly!!

In my opinion the images shown are incorrect. When your going for the flush handless look, you should have zero overhang on the benchtops. In fact for a 600mm benchtop carcases would be 580mm deep. This is for ease of use for opening the top drawer. You will be scraping your fingers according to those pics. But if you are putting in an undermount sink, the cabinet maker has to make sure he knows the depth of the sink + room for hole for tap + room for splash back/tiles. These days the benchtop should be 600-650 deep Round the sink area depending on the sink used. Infact having no handles should have given more space if he had made the doors finish flush.

Sorry but I totally disagree.

When liquids are spilt on a bench top they run down the edge, slightly back under and then drop off from the underside (try it) I am not saying all the water does this. It happens towards the end once the main bulk of water has run off. Its for this reason metal roofs have a 30-40mm turn down to stop this happening!

This means that if the fronts are flush with bench top that water will fall off onto the top edge and if you have sharknose then run into the drawers!

I have actually seen a few kitchens built with flush fronts and they have shown signs of water damage on the top edge!

Sure if you are a very neat clean person that never spills anything it this isn't an issue. But if you are like almost everyone else then a kitchen should always have a 20mm overhang so the water falls harmlessly onto the floor!!

The pictures look strange to me, are the drawer fronts still to go on?? That just looks like the carcass of the drawer???

On second view it maybe the vinyl fronts with the plastic still on. Otherwise Im not sure what sort of drawer boxes are being used, cant see draw box ends exposed.

On the your opinion of benchtop overhang. Your right about the water running. But the latest kitchens getting sold with either sharks fin or j pull are being made with zero overhang. Most architects are asking for flush these days.

Also i prefer the look of flush. Its such a 2014 look. 20mm overhang is now so old school. Think ilea bunnings & co.

I guess benchtop overhang is a personal taste. But i wouldnt make my choice on whether water is going to drip under. There are so many what if's already to contemplate.

I agree that handle less looks better with a flush face.
In my own kitchen I have the continuous aluminium J handles and have built it flush. It's definitely a more modern look. Having said that most kitchens I build that have handles have a 20mm overhang to prevent the water issues that CEK mentioned.

I was a bit confused by the pictures but I'm pretty sure it's a gloss melamine (silk or the like) with the plastic wrap on the face. The black lines drawn on the face are to indicate sides to edge.

It's hard to make it out but I'd say the cabinets have the aluminium finger recess or a recessed rail to give finger grip. Both of those methods will eat up even more space into the carcass. It's not surprising that they are struggling to install the hot plate and sink.

I'd always check to see what fittings my clients are using and make sure the cut outs fit the bench and carcass. Not an easy fix for the op I'd say.

Hmmm, really??

Personal taste I understand but this is an issue that will directly relate to how long your doors last for!!

I don't warrant my kitchen doors or drawers against water damage if my customer chooses a flush finish! I make it very clear before even starting the job.

I have seen kitchen doors damaged in 6 months from water dripping on top edge of a door near a sink.
I have seen the top edge of a entire kitchen(not mine) damaged from exactly the same thing after 4 years!

Its not a what if, its actually what happens!

I don't get how the cabinet maker even constructed the Kitchen, without first knowing the appliance details.

Unbelievable isn't it and to think he is now trying to blame in on non standard appliances. What a joke!

Yes, buying appliances to suit the constructed kitchen..........
Something seems back to front.
Tell the cabinet maker to find and purchase appliances that will fit at his cost seeing he can't fit the ones supplied.
It looks like a stone bench. You would think they would have picked up the problem at templating before the benches were installed.

Totally agree.

OP, please let us know how you get along!

Hi all

Thanks so much for the information, it has all been very useful.

To answer some of the questions, the photos show the drawers with the plastic wrap still on them. I'm pretty sure its gloss malamite finish.

With regards to the appliances, yes the kitchen maker was given the details (ie. make and model) of the stove in the very early stages of the kitchen production. Their argument is that they drew the kitchen to the size of the kitchen capentry and its our fault for chosing appliances that are too "large". However given they knew the size of the stove in the early days, our argument is that they (being the experts in making kitchens) should have consulted with my in-laws to advise that there wouldn't be enough room on that size benchtop for that size stove. As it is now, the distance between the element and the wall is 70mm. Once the splashback is installed, it will reduce to about 50-60mm, far less than the 200mm regulations (which we are a bit confused on as we're not sure how enforceable they are). Had they done that, my inlaws could have easily amended the capentry to extend the wall to have a large size benchtop. At that stage the plaster hadn't been installed. To clarify, the stove isn't unusually large, in fact it is a standard size.

The same issue has occured with the two sinks, whereby because of the way they have designed the kitchen and size of the benchtops, there is no room for the taps (they are designed to sit on the benchtop, in between the sink and splashback). The greater disappointment here is that on the one hand they are arguing that the sinks are too large, but on the other hand admit that the sinks were delivered on the day they cut the caesarstone. Our argument - why on earth cut the caesarstone when you can clearly see its not going to work? Again at that point they could have picked up the phone to discuss the issue and potential ways to resolve it, rather than proceeding with cutting the caesarstone.

All of these issues have been raised with the kitchen guys directly but they refuse to take any responsibility and are demanding more payments before finishing the job (there are other outstanding things they need to deliver and install).

It is worth mentioning that my parents ordered and paid for caesarstone, and on the day the benchtops were delivered, they noticed the colour was wrong. when they investigated further, they realised it was not caesarstone at all, rather quartz. The third party who delivered teh benchtops said the kicthen guys initially sought a quote for caesarstone, then quartz and said to proceed with quartz. When my in-laws raised it with the kitchen guys, they admitted they had to "cut costs".

Needless to say, my in-laws have lost faith that are going to have this resolved any time soon.
One option is to go through consumer affairs. Has anyone got any other suggestions?

Here are some photos of the sinks and stove topp

Is this job through a builder or have you bought the kitchen directly off the cabinetmaker?
If you bought via a builder he should have warranty insurance.

If you have bought it directly off a cabinetmaker they should by law (in victora, could vary state to state) be a restricted builder. Meaning they can't officially do work over $5000 without a contract and offer warranty insurance. Contact the kitchen association in your state to get a better advice.

If the cabinetmaker is not registered he wont want to risk being taken to VCAT (or your states equivilant) without a proper contract in place which serves to also protect you. If he is not a registered builder he cant offer the required contract.

In Victoria it costs$30-$40 to take somone to VCAT. So its worth the excercise in your position.

We are not talking about a couple hundred dollar issue here, this is a huge issue you should no turn a blind eye to. Infact i cant think of a solution other than new benchtops as the minimum, thats with you compromising. The cabinets should really be deep enough.

Others may have better news but i feel sorry for you, unless you bought from a back yarder, in which case, sorry.

The front set backs look too big on both of them.

The sink almost looks like they marked the cut out on the wrong side of the template. The margin at the back should be at the front.

The AEG cook top has an overall depth of 510mm and a cutout of 480mm. That means there should only be a 45mm setback on the front edge (that would be 60mm to the cut out). This would give you a centred cook top.

The 200mm you mentioned between the burner and rear wall can be worked around. What sort of splashback are they having? If the distance is less than 200mm you just need to make sure that there is non flammable product behind glass/metal to a height of 150mm. If its brick behind your fine.

Personally I think both of those products should fit on a 600mm bench. For what ever reason the cabinet maker has completely stuffed up the tops and cutouts, maybe trying to allow for leaving to much setback on the doors and drawers. I still can't understand how the stonemason didn't pick up the problem when they picked up the templates and at least check before going ahead.

One thing is for sure, its not your problem. The cabinet maker is at fault. He knew what appliances you had chosen and they engaged the stonemason so the fault is completely there's. From what you have said about the change in stone I'd say your dealing with a less than honest sort of person.

Let us know how it works out.