verandah not as planned.photos!what to do? update new photos

Nov 13, 2011
1:10 pm

The curve (or bullnose) is the hardest part to get right and you can often see waves in bull-nosing as they struggled to close up the gaps.

When curving the iron spreads slightly so when laying, the side laps on the straight section 'flutes-up' OK but it doesn't on the curve.

Those Ive done I have had to take a rubber mallet to the very edge of the iron around the curve, and carefully tap it over further so it sits flat on the under-sheet eliminating the gap you have. You can see where the side laps are closed they have laid the sheet 'away' from the under sheet, but failed to continue this practice

I dont want to burst your bubble Mary and being fussy has nothing to do with it, but I would give your job 4 out of 10 AND when one considers they left the returns off each end (also tricky to cut the iron to) and stuffed up the post spacings (0 out of 10) I suspect the carpenter, with little pride OR experience, did the iron work.

It appears from the fourth photo down, unless its an optical illusion, the post nearest the ladder has been moved away from the entrance steps, creating an uneven spacing

I would pay them according to my assessment of their poor standards.

It depends what you have agreed to but a building inspector would give you some reasoning for not paying much for this disaster

Nov 13, 2011
7:39 pm

Uncle Arfur

Make sure when they eventually lay the iron it doesn't have 'waves' along the line where the straight section starts to curve down into the gutter and by each hip.

mary23

heres some new photos showing the gaps where the colorbond sheets lap.

Uncle Arfur, you could see that coming couldn't you?

Great info you've provided and I agree with your comments.

Mary, I wouldn't accept those post spacings or their effort at rectifying the post in front of the door. Why did they need to add the 2 extra posts?

I'm curious to see the framework and roof battens underneath the sheets. Do you have any pics of that?

Nov 13, 2011
8:49 pm

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h350/nickbradjaxen/DSC_21981600x1200.jpg

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h350/nickbradjaxen/DSC_21771600x1200.jpg

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h350/nickbradjaxen/DSC_21791600x1200.jpg

dont worry youre not bursting my bubble, I think the whole job is sub standard.the 3rd photo is one of the footings, the bottom of the post is actually below the soil level, will be handy after a bit of rain when its full of water around the post.
This pic is from the front, Im not directly centred so the door doesnt look crentred, but it is.we met with the builder and we thought if we were agreeable to his suggestions with the posts,he would do the rest of the job well.A lot of his work is verandahs so we thought hed be quite capable of doing the bullnose.
http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h350/nickbradjaxen/DSC_23011600x1200.jpg

http://i1105.photobucket.com/albums/h350/nickbradjaxen/DSC_22801600x1200.jpg
In the 2nd photo thats my husband strting the deck, and hes quite worried you may critique his work now too, but I think he will do a much better job than the builder.
We really cant do much about the roof now though can we, as structurally its not violating any building code, its just that we dont think it looks good?

Nov 13, 2011
11:41 pm

Quote:

that's my husband starting the deck, and hes quite worried you may critique his work now too, but I think he will do a much better job than the builder.
We really cant do much about the roof now though can we, as structurally its not violating any building code, its just that we dont think it looks good?

Oh I wouldn't dare critique his work LOL

I guess most people wouldn't even notice what we are talking about, especially if they accept mediocrity. Your job looks, to a former tradie, as you bought too many posts and didn't want to credit them
Good Luck

Nov 14, 2011
6:40 am

youre right uncle arfur, theres times I look at it and think its not toooo bad, especially from the front, but its when you stand in the driveway that you really notice the gaps etc, and think it looks rather bad.
The builder just didnt want to be there at all, one of the first things he said to us was about the company he was doing the job for was 'those c###s f##k me off!!shocked both myself and my husband a little![and were not prudes].He also mentioned that the company would be charged well for the job too.
they had the roof all done in less than 3 hours, and in the process, put a hole through one of the water pipes[which is not hooked up yet thankfully], and also a dent in the doorframe where theyve obviously hit it with the post they removed, and the extra post theyve used, looks like a seconds one thats been sitting somewhere for the last 2 years.
we're not going to try and get them to come back and fix it up, we just dont think its going to get much better than it is.I am going to print some of the photos off, and give to the housing company and ask them to consider the work, before giving us the final price, [yep still dont know what this satan verandah has cost us.].

Nov 14, 2011
1:31 pm

Quote:

The builder just didn't want to be there at all, one of the first things he said to us was about the company he was doing the job for was 'those c###s f##k me off!!

I would immediately phone the company and let them know what the builder thinks of them and say "I hope you dont think you are going to get paid in full for this disaster" and tell them you are about to name and shame them on the consumer websites (its not permitted here) Not Good Enough and Whirlpool. They can always take you to the small claims Court for payment where you would have a good case for a greatly reduced price, but would need an expert's written report (Building Inspector)

Quote:

yep still dont know what this satan verandah has cost us

I must have missed something here in you not getting a firm price in writing BEFORE any work was done, because as it seems now they can charge you thou$and$ for virtual crap

Nov 14, 2011
5:48 pm

Are those roof sheets safe and ok with the lack of timber framing underneath? I don't have much experience with bullnose verandahs in particular but I've done a few of them over the years and have always framed them out with bullnose rafters (hockey sticks) and noggins in between to both support the roof and screw the sheets to (examples below).

The way they have built yours is much cheaper for them.

Nov 14, 2011
8:16 pm

hi flatlined

oh dear I have no idea!!does anyone?, uncle arfur?
Flatlined,you say you have done some bullnosed verandahs, in your opinion can you see how bad its done by looking at the photos?would any builder at a glance think its a bad job?one of my sons friends is in his 2nd or 3rd year as an apprentice builder, and he said his boss would never accept that standard of work, he said the only verandah he has seen like this is an old one that they have just repaired as it was leaking.I feel like contacting the builder and asking him to put his builders sign at the front.I doubt very much he would want to promote it as a job done by his company?
uncle arfur we were given a "quotation offer of acceptance", to sign, which states 'we are happy to confirm the following fixed price quotation for the construction of your new home'
It then lists all the connections, and additions to the house, eg, built ins, rangehood etc.and prices
On the list we have '1.8m Bullnose verandah to entire front facade 15.5m timber frame $5492.00.
When I emailed the company owner about the post issue, I asked that we be given a lesser price as it wasnt what we had wanted, he was agreeable and did say we would sort something out about price.Im going to ring and speak to them tomorrow and Im going to send through these photos and ask them to give us a final lesser price based on these photos.DO you think that anyone in the building industry will look at those photos and see the quality of the product?Im thinking theyre going to say thats normal with bullnoses.

Nov 14, 2011
9:21 pm

First to Flatlined's framing design of a bullnose veranda--

Perhaps its an interstate thing (I'm in SA) but honestly, I have never seen a bullnose veranda, and there are thousands of them here on older homes, with intermediate 'hockey sticks' and purlin noggins between as per your drawing. During and after the war when there was a shortage of building materials, bullnose verandas were used because apart from the iron, fascia, posts and sometimes 'hockey stick' hips (as yours should have been) there was nothing in them -- remembering they werent designed for walking on by irresponsible painters and the like.

'Quotation offer of acceptance'? loaded with extras, what the hell does that mean? I always used Basic Quote and Extras as Agreed to. The more I look into this scenario the more its starting to smell.

Quote:

When I emailed the company owner about the post issue, I asked that we be given a lesser price as it wasn't what we had wanted, he was agreeable and did say we would sort something out about price. I'm going to ring and speak to them tomorrow and I'm going to send through these photos and ask them to give us a final lesser price based on these photos

I think leaving the lesser price to the company was another mistake. I have been retired out of the trade for a while now but I think you were charged too much from the beginning and would suggest getting a couple of quotes as a ball park guide -- site unseen naturally -- before agreeing to any offer from them.

Anyone want to bet the 'lesser price' will only be about a 10% reduction? When, due to missing returns and a woeful job it should be a little over half the original price.

Quote:

DO you think that anyone in the building industry will look at those photos and see the quality of the product? I'm thinking they're going to say that's normal with bullnoses.

It will depend on who you ask. Ask the fool that erected it and he would say its fine -- ask me and I say its CRAP! What you must TELL the builder is you are thoroughly disappointed in how it turned out and will be adjusting your payment accordingly, BUT you will need someone of professional standing (building inspector or the like) to give your argument plenty of clout.

Please DO NOT ask them to put their sign out the front, as it could be misconstrued, should it come to Court. They can turn it against you by saying you were completely satisfied and asked for a sign out the front. Pardon me for saying but that's a stupid idea.

You must stand your ground, dont roll over and accept their lowly standards or you will feel like a door mat. If they threaten Court, that's fine but get strong back-up first.

Nov 14, 2011
10:16 pm

thanks uncle arfur,
we're in SA too.
I wasnt going to ask the builder to put their sign up, It was more just a point that, I bet they would not want to advertise this as their work.
Will be back with an update tomorrow night hopefully.

Nov 15, 2011
9:24 am

mary23

Flatlined,you say you have done some bullnosed verandahs, in your opinion can you see how bad its done by looking at the photos?would any builder at a glance think its a bad job?
On the list we have '1.8m Bullnose verandah to entire front facade 15.5m timber frame $5492.00.
Im going to ring and speak to them tomorrow and Im going to send through these photos and ask them to give us a final lesser price based on these photos.DO you think that anyone in the building industry will look at those photos and see the quality of the product?Im thinking theyre going to say thats normal with bullnoses.

When I saw the first pics I assumed the framework wasn't finished so I was surprised to see that in fact was the whole frame. They stated a 1.8m timber framed bullnose verandah. I would take that to mean a complete timber framed verandah, not just a lintel and posts

.
I don't know what the regulations are but to me it doesn't look like a very solid structure (apart from the many posts of coarse). Did it require a building inspection and if so did it pass? Personally I wouldn't be too concerned with the appearance because I wouldn't have any confidence in them to do a better job and when trying to fix it, they will most likely do more damage.

I'd be more concerned about it structurally. That design relies solely on the roof sheets to keep everything straight and plumb. There's nothing stopping the bullnose curve from flattening out over time which will cause the posts to lean out of plumb. Is there any solid blocking behind the fascia or is the fascia alone the only thing connecting the verandah to the house? Simply screwing into the Colorbond fascia is not a good enough fixing to support the verandah. Without a solid fixing behind the fascia you'll end up with more problems. Strong winds put a lot of pressure on verandahs and I'd think the bullnose curve would increase that pressure even more. A strong wind could easily end up ripping the fascia off the house. Does the verandah feel solid and stable? If you were to try and shake the posts back and forth is there any movement or sway in the structure?

Have you considered getting a private inspector to go out there to assess it? If he finds any issues you will then have some backup when confronting the builder.

Uncle Arfur

Are the ones you see on older homes the original verandahs or have they been recently rebuilt? A lot of building methods from many years ago are no longer allowed anymore. I'm unsure about bullnose framing regulations but I would've thought it unsafe to have 15m of roofing at 1.5m or 1.8m long to only be supported at each end. As I previously mentioned the whole structure is relying on the sheets to keep it braced and stop any movement or sway. Hips would help to brace it but they stuffed that up too and didn't add them. Whats stopping the curve from flattening out slightly in the middle of the verandah (above front door) which in turn will push the posts out of plumb and create a bow in the front beam?

Its not the irresponsible painters that I worry about, its the kid who kicks his ball on the roof when no ones around that worries me. They know they're not allowed on the roof but boys will be boys. Many years ago a kid could probably jump up and down on that roof all day long and wouldn't even make a dent but have you seen the size of some of these kids today?

.

It just surprises me that in this day and age something such as a verandah would be allowed to be built in such a flimsy manor. I'm interested to know the cost of the verandah on its own without the added extras included.

Nov 16, 2011
2:21 am

From what Ive read of your post Flatlined, and I have no wish to get personal, but you know little of what you are talking about and I would guess you dont have a roof plumbing background as I do.

Bullnose verandas are built in Mary's design now and were, donkey's years ago. For your information, the iron is slightly heavier gauge rolling-iron (same as used for round corrugated water tanks) that will not 'straighten out' as you claim. Kids jumping up and down on any roof show a distinct lack of parental control, respect for other's property and deserve punishment.

Perhaps you can explain the difference in design principles of thousands of flat roof verandas and carports (with greater spans than 1.8m) with the iron covering only attached at either end -- house fascia and gutter truss/C section?

I look forward to your update Mary

Nov 18, 2011
9:17 pm

Uncle Arfur

Arfur you guessed it correctly, I don't have a roof plumbing background. I have sheeted a couple roofs here and there over the years but I'd be kidding myself if I thought that qualifies me as a roof plumber. I'm actually a carpenter by trade so the framing, or more so the lack of framing is what sparked my curiosity. I didn't think people would build them in such a flimsy way these days especially when its 12m wide with open ends. If it had hip returns on each end it would help with bracing the structure but without them it relies solely on the roof sheets for bracing and that just wont do it. I'm still curious to know if any solid blocking was installed behind the fascia to use for a solid fixing/connection point. If it's relying on the fascia alone they may as well knock the thing down now to save further damage and/or possible injury.

If it does meet all requirements with wind pressures taken into account and comes with a structural guarantee from a reputable company then I guess there's nothing to worry about. I would still have my concerns and personally I wouldn't accept it. I do tend to over-engineer things but I sleep well every night knowing that everything I build is built to last and won't blow away lol.

Asking me to explain the design principles of every other type of verandah is ridiculous. With the various roof cover products available today the structural design will vary accordingly. I assume these roofs you speak of with the much greater end spans are not of this same corrugated roofing but something else like decking which is capable of the longer spans?

Nov 18, 2011
9:38 pm

Quote:

If it had hip returns on each end it would help with bracing the structure but without them it relies solely on the roof sheets for bracing and that just wont do it.

Oh come now Flatlined, I think you have gone bracing mad. By the way, take another look at Mary's it has 'hockey sticks' (your description) at each end. Do you think this structure is subject to howling gales, when the greatest danger would be wind-lift

Quote:

If it's relying on the fascia alone they may as well knock the thing down now to save further damage and/or possible injury.

Oh really? What utter rubbish and based on your opinion alone? Give me a break! I very much doubt if you are a qualified carpenter, with statements like this.

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and comes with a structural guarantee from a reputable company

Oh really? When thousands of these were built, I suggest before you were born, the iron was only secured by springhead nails. Now with timber Tek screws your argument is not even worth considering.

The reason I mentioned decking verandas with larger spans, the fixing method is the same, at either end alone, that you have conveniently ignored.

I refuse to debate an issue with someone who readily admits to NO experience and bases statements on an 'over-engineered' opinion.

Nov 19, 2011
7:11 pm

Uncle Arfur

Bracing mad? I don't think its an overkill to suggest at least one form of solid bracing somewhere within the structure. I wouldn't know what winds it will be subjected to because I don't even know where it is but regardless of that, it's not my job to determine those things, all I was saying is I hoped that aspect was taken into consideration.

Also Arfur I did know it has a rafter at each end and I even referred to them in an earlier post so I don't need to take another look. Are you suggesting those rafters have only been added for visual effect to give off the impression the rest of the verandah is framed in the same manor or do they actually serve another purpose?

Quote:

Oh really? What utter rubbish and based on your opinion alone? Give me a break! I very much doubt if you are a qualified carpenter, with statements like this.

Can you explain to me how metal fascia could be considered a solid fixing point? The metal fascia itself isn't even solidly fixed to the house, as you would know it just clips on to brackets. Would you rely on a 12m verandah being attached to a house without the use of any bolts to connect the 2 structures? I don't know if that has happened here, I was simply suggesting they check it out.

Quote:

Yes really. Why wouldn't you expect a structural guarantee? Just because thousands have been built that way previously doesn't mean a guarantee isn't warranted! Are you serious?
Those spring head nails did their job quite well and the main reason for that was the hardwood timber they were nailed into. Softwoods don't hold onto the nails as tight as hardwoods,

I didn't ignore your decking comments, I replied asking for clarification of the roofing material you were referring to. Corrugated iron and decking are 2 different products with different specifications so to compare them is not really relevant.

My questions still remain. What's stopping the sheets from slightly losing their curved shape over time? Obviously that couldn't happen at each end because the timber rafters ensure no movement will occur there but what about where there is no rafters? Is the sheet capable of holding the fascia beam straight and keep the posts plumb for many years to come? Will the bullnose curve hold its exact shape over the next 20+ years?

If the roofing manufacture is happy that all requirements have been met and can guarantee their product, I'd be satisfied.

I've gone on about it enough already and you seem to be set in your ways and not willing to accept anything different. At the end of the day you get what you pay for and only time will tell.

Nov 20, 2011
9:34 am

hi guys
firstly please play nice!

secondly, an update!
I sent the photos on to the company, and spoke to them, just said to look at the pics before giving us a final price, also said I wasnt asking for anyone to come back and fix anything.[I didnt mention it but, the builders put a hole through a water pipe last time, and also left a dent in the doorway when they took the pole out, so I really didnt want them back].
I rang a couple of days later to see if we had an invoice yet, which was waiting on the final price for verandah, and they did say someone had come back to try and tidy the roofing up.[the builder would have been swearing about me im certain].
So Im not sure what theyve done but it does look better.Its also been painted, and looks better because of that too.
And we got the final invoice and uncle arfur you were pretty spot on with your prediction, at being @10% reduction, as weve been given a credit of $500 off of the verandah!!