I need some advice here.

I have someone lined up to lay and finish my timber floor. They have already delivered the Ultraset SF Polyurethane Timber Floor Adhesive. There are 14 10L drums. For supply, freight and GST I have been invoiced for $4480.00. That's about $315/10L drum. Is this insane?????

I just called local hardware and I can get 15L drums of same product (don't know brand but all their brands are the same price) for $181.25. I would only need 10 drums so a total price of $1812.50. I can get it delivered for $16.50 or pick up myself.

My plan of attack was to phone and discuss their price with the one I can get. If they will not price-match then they can have theirs back and I will supply the product myself. This is like a "progress payment and is part of the total price of ~$22000 to lay and finish floor. I will then take the $4480 off what I was to pay them.

Surely, regardless of what brand...their brand is not worth nearly 2.5 times what any other brand is. Am I just being ripped off here?????

HELP.

I buy 15L buckets of Bostick Ultraset for around $180 - you have been stitched up on the other product (which I think is a Bostick product but in 10L buckets?)

I use Bostick Ultraset for timber floors going over timber, ply and some times concrete - all though my preference for direct stick is the Selleys product.

The only point of difference may be the coverage rate, but on face value looks like someone is having a lend of you

Small world eh, just read through your reno thread - we lived on the Tablelands at Lake Eacham for 10 years before moving down south

Good luck with it all

Okay just reading through the post a bit.

You have been invoiced by the installer/slash finisher $4480 for the supply and delivery of glue?

This comes off the total price of $22,000?

Leaving a balance of $17,520?

The cost of the glue may be irrelevant - what was the per sqm price for the supply, install and finish?

How awful!
But isn't that Bostik Ultraset SF Polyurethane Timber Floor Adhesive (Bostik being the brand)??
I was told that Bostik Ultraset is the best (for chipboard installation at least) and also the most expensive.

BTW, how come you need that much glue? Seems like they going to trowel glue the floor? Is the installation on slab?

It would seem to be Bostick on face value - but I dont recall that coming in 10L buckets.

I would trowel glue most timber floors I install - notwithstanding structural flooring over joists of course.

Namtrak, you seem to be in a very small group! We spoke to so many installers and only 2 of them would use a bead of glue (maybe a snake pattern) along each board - all the rest of them only use a bead of glue perpendicular to the boards and spaced away some 300mm or more. And nobody does a trowel glue !!

Thanks for your quick reply Namtrak.

I wasn't given this detail for the original quote but the invoice for the $4480 specifically states that this money is for supply and deliver of the 14 10L drums of the glue. Before he invoiced me, he called to say that he had over $4000 worth of glue sitting there that he needed to pay his distributors for. So I take that as meaning that this is the price of the glue only and that it has nothing to do with the labour or any other costs. If it is for other costs as well, then the invoice is incorrect as it should reflect this.

Does that train of thought make sense to you?

There is 219m2 of tongue and groove to be laid over yellow tongue particle board...does that clear up issues with quantities?

BTW, were you in the flooring business when you were on the tablelands? And is there anyone you would/wouldn't recommend?

Does the cost of approx. $100/m2 cover the installation (including glue), sanding and polishing only, or also the timber cost?

I already have the timber, so it is just for installation etc.

Just went out to the house (yes in darkness at 8:30pm ) to see exactly what the product is and it is: Bostik Ultraset Overlay High Build Polyurethane Timber Flooring Adhesive BROWN.

Your thoughts Namtrak and Lex???

Thanks in advance.

RF

Thanks, R. Funny I was looking for Bostik official info on how much of Ultraset SF should be used for particleboard installation, but that product has no proper info, just a short description. BUT, I found yours easily!! However, I don't understand is your glue for so-called overlay flooring (as in slimmer overlay) or for 19mm strip flooring.
Anyway, here's that doco: http://www.bostikfindley.com.au/technical_data_sheets_PDF/Bostik_Ultraset_Overlay.pdf

If they use glue as per the doco (ie. for Overlay flooring - 5mm V notch trowel, approximately 1.2 to 1.4m² per litre) ... so works out you need 168.5 litres of glue if I use the average value of 1.3 m2 / l. They ordered 14 drums, ie. 140 litres. Maybe they will use a smaller notch trowel. There will be a bit of waste with the glue, but it also depends on how good the installers are.

Since you are installing over YT, it's good that they planned for this much glue. What timber do you have and what is the size of the boards?

Lex, thanks for the info will have a read of it now.

There are also about 38 600mL tubes of the adhesive there as well (so about 163L all up) so that coverage sounds about right. The timber is cypress pine, 22mm thick, 85mm wide.

I am comfortable with the quantity of glue especially based on you information (and considering I had thought he said 40 drums not 14 although for the price I am paying I could buy 40 elsewhere).

What I am unhappy about is the price, especially since the invoice specifically states it is only for the glue and he also said it is only for the glue.

Is ~$100/m2 a fair price overall?

It could get tricky if you try to argue the cost of glue alone. Some installers can be super sensitive that someone who isn't in the business can get some info very easily, like the cost of various materials. It's also likely that he has tradies discount, so sounds like double dipping - almost.

I am not sure what are the install costs in your region, maybe more than in metro areas, and am not sure if the 22mm has a role in the cost. I would expect that average Sydney price for install, sand and a "standard" coating (not water based or some special oils) is about 55/m2, so max 65 if water based. This includes GST. It also seems that most people who charge this will only use small amounts of glue, but this also varies a lot!

If we deduct the glue from the total of 22k, it sounds much better, at $80/m2. Also depends what kind of coating will you have. Overall sounds good, except that it leaves a very bad taste because of their glue pricing.

I think I will ring around tomorrow just to "sus" out the general prices in the area. I know of at least one other place in our town and there would be at least one other in the next town. The sad thing is, I have ended up getting a few tradies form down in Cairns (1.5 hours away) because they are still cheaper and more willing even with travel . My builder came from Cairns, so does my tiler. I got drains and tiles from Melbourne . There is a lot of unnecessary over charging up here. I have always known that .

Thanks for your input Lex and Namtrak, more input still welcome.

Will let you know how I go.

I am very cautious as an installer - I don't want any callbacks, so I almost always trowel with a 3mm notched trowel onto timber and a 5mm trowel onto concrete.



Yeh sounds to me like he is chasing an advance payment more so than just paying for the glue. If I was in your boat, I would probably call him on it - something along the lines of the "the glue should cost around $2000, the payment of $4400 looks over and above. If you want an partial payment then just be upfront and we will work fine together etc" I think the installer is probably not sensible enough to just seek a partial.

Only in a small way on the Tablelands. Sorry no recommendations.



Being Cypress I would clarify what sort of finish is going on the floor. I prefer a Hardwax Oil on Cypress I reckon it looks super, either way I would definitely stay away from the older style finishes. Alternatively a water based finish will not yellow over time and keeps the colour of the original floor intact.

$100 is quite reasonable - if you have any doubts never too late to ask to see floors done by the contractor - I always offer the opportunity to see floors in situ for potential clients.

Cheers

Thanks Namtrak...yes I would prefer them to just ask for a deposit to cover initial costs including glue and labour. Transparency makes things much easier for all I reckon.

That price is for 3 coats of polyurethane on top. Is that what you mean by older style finishes? Is that not a good finish to have? We were looking at an oil finish but were concerned about the costs. How much more expensive would you expect (say per m2) we should pay for this kind of finish?

It is a personal preference but the solvent based polyurethanes have a much higher degree of toxicity whilst curing and the finish yellows over time - so you basically end up looking at the finish rather than the floor.

The main product I use are Bona water based finishes (Bona)

The solvent based finishes are cheaper, but the extra cost would only be $2/3 per sqm

For 200 sqm the cost of a 1 coat of Bona primer and 2 coats of Bona mega would be just on $8.2 per sqm or about $1650 cost to the installer. Something like a Polycure would cost about $1000 for 200 sqm

Thanks. Will chat with DH about it because that is the way we initially wanted to go especially to avoid the toxicity issues. DH brought it up again the other day and I was concerned about cost and not being able to afford it but I think that is reasonable.

What sort of upkeep is required for hardwax oil finished floors? Does this need annual maintenance?

Edit: Ok just checked out the Bona products and it gives me a bit of an idea on the maintenance...pretty easy really.

The Hardwax Oil I use is called Treatex supplied by Whittlewaxes. This costs around $330 per 5L but, and this is the thing a lot of installers don't consider is that you only need 2 THIN coats, as opposed to 3 coats for the polyurethanes

Treatex is actually cheaper than the Bona products.

2 coats of Treatex costs $3.16 per sqm per coat ($6.32 finished)

1 coat primer and 2 coats Bona Mega costs $8.2 finished.

Maintenance for both is similar - a spray on /wipe off cleaning product from both companies which is very easy to use. Prevention is always better - door mats, furniture protectors, clipped dog nails etc

If you are considering the Treatex product a go give Giles at Whittlewaxes a call (google them) he is very helpful, and if Bona send Bona a email with any questions then Adrian will happily answer your questions

Thank you, thank you, thank you . I feel so much better informed. I don't like not-knowing and going into things blind, especially since I am the one responsible for spending so much money. I am always worried about making bad, uninformed decisions.

Well, to be fair, I did have one guy did give me the address of a public place ...