Thank you Fred for sharing your valuable insights. South France is similar to a lot of other temperate zone areas in Australia. But I am surprised that you didn't suffer the Arctic winter 'Mistral' at times.

I suspect that 'Old world' countries have had more time to think about how to build comfortable dwellings and have evolved a unique architecture. Both Australia and many parts of the USA are dissimilar in this regard.

I sometimes theorise why our modern homes aren't build with more thought.

European Australia has never been able to develop a vernacular architecture that suited this climate.

Our early settlers came from a cold place (British Isles) and suddently moved to one with hot summers (Australia) and had trouble adapting their buildings to this climate.

Our later pioneers concentrated on keeping houses cool with deep verandahs, generous ventilation or elevation on stilts. This came at the expense of inadequate natural sunlight during winter and cold draughts. But wood was in plentiful abundance, the population was small and artificial heating was not considered to be an excessive expense.

In our short history, we rapidly began to enjoy the luxuries of fossil-fuel heating (and more recently air conditioning) to overcome these deficiencies in design and construction. Until now there probably there has not been the economic pressure to incorporate good passive elements to reduce the use of these devices. Coal is still relative abundant here (like Uranium) and there are not the same drivers to build more efficient homes.

Europe's history is far longer and more innovation was required for the majority to manage. Even with the benefits of modern heating and cooling devices, energy prices and pollution issues in a densely populated country limit certain forms of energy generation.

PS you make an important point about sealing the house. It seems like a minor point but this is major source of heat loss during winter.

PPS are Volets like those windows seen in Italy where the shutters keep the sun out but allow cross ventilation to occur?

Bienvenue au forum de Homeone,

You and everyone else can buy any quality house you like in Australia. The builders build what the market demands. Builders are not cutting corners, the price of the building equates with the price of the materials, the land cost and taxes are the main costs.

We supply double glazed windows in aluminium and uPVC at well below the competitor prices, yet people are not taking these up in huge numbers - why? Because they value something else more. Maybe they would rather have the theatre room for the plasma TV, or the Caesarstone benchtop in the kitchen, because that's what goes into any new design home before the double glazing. It's supply and demand. A local builder I know emigrated from Europe and built houses European style, he had to stop, no demand.

Ed

Hello!



I know that... but you have to make your priorities right.
In France, you do not have a choice, the builders HAVE to comply to the regulation ( http://www.logement.gouv.fr/IMG/pdf/rt2 ... 102006.pdf ) which requires a very good insulation. So EVERYBOY in France who has been buying a new house since 1974 lives in a comfortable house winter and summer.
Every 5 years this regulation is reviewed and the builders' houses are tested to see if they comply...if the builders use crap materials, then they are automaticly in trouble and they have to rectify..
To be honest, the material used here appears to me very very cheap (a friend of mine has built a home with insulation recently but was still freezing last winter!)...and I still don't get why there are gaps in the windows frames on most of windows I've seen here...
So who's gonna tell me that what I'm buying is good quality... I know, the nice sale lady..Bulls***NOBODY
.. Every Australian should be certain that working his whole life for a house, he gets a proper deal, and that should be guaranted by some tougher regulations implemented by the governement.

Also, in France for example, between the legislation RT2000 and RT2005 there has been a 15% decrease in energy cost and 50% decrease since 1974.

So yeah ...


It's now impossible to change the Australian way of life with big houses, many toilets and bathrooms (to be honest, I like that too !!)..etc... that's why the government has an essential role here, and has to impose tougher rules for builders without giving the full bill to the home buyer.

This is why I find forums great, because we can share our experiences, and compare what is comparable, like 2 similar countries like France and Australia (2 rich countries, with similar climates Sydney or Melbourne/South of France) and people can talk about it and things will change one day this is certain, specially when we need to act to help the environment.

http://www.persoweb.free.fr/Pages_photos/Fondations.htm
(press "etapes suivantes" arrow to see stages)
Please have a look at a regular house that is built on the other side of the planet, and just tell me if just the look of it make you think that the materials are made to last for ever... that is just a regular house over there, even the 1st floor is plain concrete. looking at the windows, I know that they won't get air going through the frame...
The price of a house over there is not more expensive than here.
So where does go the money????
I know, the size of our "Bricks" or "Moellons" over there are 10 times bigger than the ones here...so 10 times less time to build a house ! (just kidding). Have you noticed? No frame wood except for the roof..reduce the risk of mite infestation!





Hey Dymonite69, so you know about Mistral...I used to work in Marseille before coming here, and yes this is a strong cold wind coming from the North, people say that it makes people crazy after a few days without stopping! I'm from Ardeche, which is protected from this wind, if you want to spend some holidays over there that is a great relaxing spot soooo much better than Paris !

[/quote]PPS are Volets like those windows seen in Italy where the shutters keep the sun out but allow cross ventilation to occur?[quote]

Yes and no...there are many types they can be plain, but are on every single windows of every single houses overthere. That is one of the first thing that I noticed here..no volets on houses! Even for security reasons, that is a great unexpensive thing to have.

I'm sorry being so upset about this insulation thing, but....I find it hard to come home after a day of work and freeze in my home or spend a lot of money just not to and knowing that I'm heating the street as well!!! (specially when the winter is not that cold!)

Ciao
Fred

Hi Fred,

I had a look at this interesting website (I used Google translate it into English)

Je suis un analphabète australien!

I have a few questions.

Do you always build a basement? Is the electricity and plumbing always put through from the baement?

Do you have many problems with moisture or cracks in the basement? Are your soils stable?

Is Moellons natural stone or concrete blocks? What do you use to line the walls? Plaster? Plasterboard? Other?

What is your roofing material? Tiles? Wood? Do you need to waterproof?

Are the interior walls always erected after the external walls and roof are up?

Are the internal wall pre-fabricated? What are they made of? How strong? Do they have insulation? Do you put the wires and pipes in the interior partitions or through the exterior walls?

That was great Fred.

How much is the built house? How big is it?

Isn't the wall material the same as Australia, gypsum or plaster board? I can see it is double layer with an eggbox in between.

Thanks
Ed

Even a science degree wouldn't help you understand what you need to know. I, myself, have a degree and currently pursuing my PhD in Engineering. I just got told off by one of the forum members few days ago, because I didn't know the correct 'teminologies' used in house building.

'If' statements would be the best thing to do about eco living. i.e.



The above is just a simple code that should be designed and used by the Sustainability website. It makes it easier for people to understand what they need and their options as well...

I hear what you are saying.

Your proposal is possible but your code might become a bit unwieldy. The computer algorithm required is more like programming a chess computer rather than the recipe for making sponge cake.

The Technical manual is in some ways too detailed and not prescriptive enough. The Building Codes are too prescriptive and don't given enough detail or explanation. We need to find a balance which is generally useful for the majority.

Nevertheless, you probably could make a good first approximation with a few simple rules.

The first if statements should be based on local climate. If you live in a temperate zone like Adelaide... If you live in a sub-tropical zone like Darwin.... If you live in a cold temperate zone like Hobart....

This drives where you should concentrate your efforts:

Firstly, eco-housing is not an EITHER/OR proposition. A perfect solution does not exist (at least not a cheap one). The major problem is that current houses are so INEFFICIENT. This is the problem that needs to be addressed first. Going to 5 stars is relative simple. 7.5 stars is a bit more involved but not impossible.

Naturally grey water systems, solar HWS and solar PV panels can be a little complicated. They require additional technical expertise but are not impossible to implement.

But arguments about these things actually detracts from the main issue. A huge amount of energy is wasted trying to artificially heat or cool our houses to a comfortable level which could be minimised by good design and natural methods.

Good passive design is predominantly about controlling two free energy sources at your disposal - the sun which heats and the wind that cools. There is no magic about it.

The major problem exists at the design stage (long before one considers things such as insulation, double glazing and grey-water systesm). As one contributor has said, it is all about orientation.

It sounds too simple to be true but where you put your living areas, bedrooms, windows and eaves makes a big difference to the comfort of the house. Most houses are incredibly energy efficient because these issues are ignored. People just find a plan they like and plonk it down on a piece of land without thinking about which way the house should ideally face. We have come to expect that when it overheats in summer and/or freezes in winter it is the norm. To compensate the occupants crank on the gas heater or air con to desperately compensate for a bad design.

In winter:

Moving air blows heat out of the house (through cracks, holes and gaps). Breezes passing by the outside cools your roof and walls down. Without weathersealing and adequate insulation your heating system has to generate twice as much energy to keep the house warm.

Insufficient solar access (from trees, oversized verandahs and inadequate north facing windows) never allows the house to get the benefit of the warming sun (every square metre of sun exposed window admits the equivalent energy of one bar radiator). Whatever free energy you can't get you end up needing to generate yourself (at significant expense).

On the other hand In summer:

Inadequate sun-shading or radiant barriers (no eaves, awnings or shutters) allows unwanted solar radiation to enter the house and warm the objects inside (remember the one bar radiator analogy). It is easier and more efficient to stop the heat entering in the first place than trying to remove it afterwards. The air con works at least 25% harder than it needs to.

Obstacles to the direct path of cooling breezes prevent heat being flushed out of the house which accumulates with each passing day during a heat wave. Lack of air movement also stops the evaporative heat loss from the skin.

When you are using an air conditioner, poor weathersealing and open windows and doors allow all the hot air back inside that your unit has been struggling all day to keep out. It's as inefficient as leaving your fridge door open.

It's not rocket science to see how significant these simple differences influence how much wasted energy (and money) goes into making a house comfortable. One can verify this when they see their gas bill during winter or electricity bill during summer.

Hi Fred

Well, you've absolutely nailed it on the head with your comments about truly sh*te quality houses being built in Australia. I must admit I don't agree at all with comment that builders build to demand only. The fact is, building codes here are sadly lacking when it comes to insulation standards. They are pretty good at over engineering everything else, but the easy stuff - insulation, double glazing, non draughty doors and windows, etc just gets shoved to one side. How many brand new houses have a cheap wooden door with an inch gap underneath it? Unbelievable.

Your comment about having double glazed sliding doors that let draughts through made me smile. That is exactly my experience when I bought my first Aussie made dg 15 years ago, Rehau garbage if I remember rightly.

True but codes are changing. There are better (not great) insulation standards in the codes and some window manufacturers are subjecting themselves to WERS ratings which measure air-infiltration. There are now minimum standards for window leaks.

There is only one gold standard measure for air-tightness (blower door test) but this is to test products, not houses.

Pity about weathersealing standards. A caulking gun and some weatherstrips address most problems.

Have been for many years...




They use a smoke test. But in the UK they have mandatory trickle vents in the windows now to allow air flow from outside because houses are sealed too well and suffer from "sickness" causing mildew etc...

Ed

Or the old adage - 'Build tight, ventilate right"

Passivhaus achieves this in a sophisticated way with heat recovery ventilators.

Outgoing stale moist air is exchanged with incoming fresh air but conserve the heat contained in it. This is usually not worth the added expense and complexity Australian climates. It is usual to accept a degree of heat loss to maintain air quality.

Perhaps you are over complicating things? Long before all this technology people were able to address many of these issues.

Making real energy and water savings isn't too hard if you apply a little commonsense. Most new dwellings are already behind the eightball the moment the site is pegged out. First and foremost it is all about orientation. If you don't appreciate where the sun and wind come from, then you you immediately lose the value of two free but potent energy sources. At this point it you are fighting a losing battle while you obsess over esoteric and technical details.

The majority of house plans are rarely built or selected with proper orientation in mind. They are designed to an aesthetic and convention. For instance the master bedroom invariably goes to the front no matter which way the block is facing. You present an alternative and people will reject it outright because it doensn't fit their expectations.

In many ways it is not just the builders or technical advisors that are at fault - the market drives a lot of industry behaviour.

On top of this, the single biggest factor that influences whether a house is able to save energy is probably occupant behaviour.

I like to share my experience for eco building.

I started by reading this forum, yourhome.gov.au, and many many other sources etc.

I then narrowed it down to what I think I would like in my new build. Mind you, I nearly fell asleep with all the technical details. I decided to go with double glazed windows with UPVC, geothermal for heating cooling and hot water, polished concrete with in slab heating on the ground floor, hydronic heating for upstairs, passive solar design, LED lights, underground rainwater tank, some form of ventilation system, ceiling fans instead of air conds and a Ecoblock home. Solar panels were crossed off the list as I felt the techonology of the panels itself will become obsolete sooner than the 20 year payback period.

I was prepared to sacrifice some of the features above if they are outside of budget. So, when I was looking for builders, I would get them to quote everything above to see if we can afford all these features. The first thing to go was the Ecoblock as that was way over our budget (at least $100k extra from memory). 2nd thing was to downgrade UPVC windows to aluminium windows. After all, it's still better than single glazing. 3rd to go was 10k liters underground water tank replaced with only 3k liters slim line tank due to space constraints. 4th to go was the ventilation system as the architect claimed that his design incorporated cross ventilation.

But overall, I suffered information overload from mind boggling confusing statistics and differing opinions. In the end, just went with what i thought felt right and within budget. It helps that there is a government grant and I sacrificed on aesthetic sides of things (eg I was prepared to buy an IKEA kitchen but DH decided on a modest customised kitchen). Note that these are all done without much input from our builder who clearly is out to build a standard home and not really into eco friendly sustainable features. Our architect was obviously not a greenie as he is only out to design a nice looking home! I absolutely will not use his services again if I ever do get the chance to build a 2nd home though I have to admit I like his designs.

Next thing, when the home is finished, we'll see if the expensive experiment with the geothermal is worth it.

In the end, I don't think my home is 100% green/sustainable/eco-friendly. Example:- I didn't incorporate the use of recycled timber and I have upstairs carpeting. I have done the best I could within my budget after navigating through the information overload. Now just to pray hard things come together as planned when the home is ready.

A disappointing outcome.

I think from the perspective of a supplier in one specific industry surrounded by "information" about our industry products, that the most difficult area to manoeuvre is performance and price. In our industry, you can easily pay too much, or get too little for your money. For example if we say a particular brand/type of window costs $100 for a performance of 100%, in the industry, another brand can cost $400 for a performance of 50% or even $600 for 90% and $1,000 for 120%. Now this product is only one component, perhaps 5% of a build, so research for the whole build is 20 times this volume. Major builders with research and development teams can wade through the "information" and make sense of it (usually paying as little as possible for minimum performance), but individuals, be they builders, architects or owner builders, will be stretched. It is no surprise that there are huge compromises.

Ed

I think you will end up with a comfortable home.

At the end of the day most of your gains are simply obtained. Bring in the sun and keep out the wind during winter. Keep out the sun and bring in the wind during summer. There is no magic. You are just using natural energy sources to assist with conditioning the house.

Orientation always comes first.

For winter - weathersealing, good insulation +/- DG, adequate mass
For summer - good shading, radiant barriers and adequate ventilation.

Other things like hydronic, solar, rainwater tanks and WELS 4+ fittings are just icing on the cake.

Using recycled and low VOC materials can usually tracked with a bit of research or using ecospecifier - they just add more to the cost of the build.

That's the point. I hope so.



I know the theory, on a high level. Let's see how effective is the cross ventilation when the home is finished. I am still having doubts how much sun we're getting in the winter as there's a 2 storey apartment block at the northern end of our land.

Will definitely ensure the house is sealed properly during winter.

Our insulation is R4 to ceiling, and R2 to walls and R2 acoustic batts.




We are going to have low voc paints and low voc carpets.

If you intend to carpet the sun rooms (ie the rooms that get the most sun)
then be aware that carpets will insulate the concrete floor and not allow solar gain into the slab.

Just a thought.

And that's all anyone can truly ask for!

Your story is one of many in this thread that illustrates real demand for off-the-shelf eco homes. I know Burbank has a line of them but consumer confidence would probably be greater in a company that ONLY produced 7+ star homes with other eco features. An integral part would be sales consultants who understand the product and the technical principles behind it, and are able to match off-the-shelf floorplans to blocks for optimal orientation.

IMO there are too many people out their propping up their egos or their bank balances by promoting the idea that eco is elusive, exclusive, rare and expensive. You don't need to build your house out of sundried dodo's vomit. Just face it the right way, put the right number of the right type of windows in the right spot, insulate it and include eaves and you're 90% of the way there.

^^^^ Great post Russell.

I started this thread what seems like an eternity ago.
We are now in our house. We do not have any double glazing due to a number of factors. But primarily the fact that they would have been aluminium frames and it did not seem cost effective with that hardware.

But, on our less than ideal north facing block, we managed to get a huge north facing window to our main living area at the rear of the house (so we still maintain our views by having the living rooms there), the rest of the windows face east so this area warms itself up with the winter sun. We have 600mm eaves, increased insulation, heavy window coverings and all our openings are weather sealed.

We do not have any air coniditioning at all, and even on the hottest days in summer, we found freestanding fans effective. We do use our heater, but it isn't on all day and goes on for a few hours at night until we go to bed. Some of our neighbours did not increase their insulation and have their heater on 20 all night. It does get very, very cold up here.

Our house is not ideal, but we are using far less energy that we have in other houses. We didn't end up having to spend a small fortune, they accidently gave us our eaves for free , but if they hadn't, the cost of our eaves and increased insulation was around the 5k mark. Our house is for the most part really comfortable except on the coldest of days when we have to crank up the heater. We will not be installing any air conditioning at all (only ceiling fans).

I would have liked double glazing, but regardless of what spin is put on it, in this country, at this time, it is unrealistically priced.

I'm happy with the decisions we made, and it was the best we could do within the limits of our builder and our budget. Just like summergrace.

We still haven't moved into our new house even though it's been locked up for 3 months now, but I'd like to add my 2 pennyworth.
The house is oriented along the East-West axis, has large windows looking North, all windows designed for cross-breezes, RBV (reverse brick veneer) walls, double glazed PVC windows, R4.1 batt insulation in the ceiling and R2 in the walls.
This winter, even during the coldest spells (and we had 3 weeks with mercury dropping to close to 0), the temperature inside never went below 17-18, without any heating, with the tiled floors still covered with cardboard, no drapes and no weather seals under the entry doors. Last summer was still before the lockup, but even then it was never hotter than 29 inside. The finished, fully furnished house should perform even better. BTW, there's no A/C.
The cost of the finished house is approx $290K (excluding photovoltaics and rainwater tanks). RBV costed us $15K extra, insulation upgrade approx $2K, windows upgrade approx $6K, total of $23K. That's approx 15% extra for the bare walls with roof and windows and approx - 7.9% for the finished house, not an insignificant sum, but in my opinion well worth spending.
As for the paint, we've used Volvox clay paint on walls/ceiling, it's wonderful (not suited for families with kiddies though, walls can't be scrubbed) and VOC free Rockcote on doors, skirts, etc.
Personally, I'd rather sacrifice extra floor space, second bath or fancy bells and whistles gizmos for thermal efficiency and low VOC paints and furnishings for the comfort, ambience and low running costs.

Chris