The debate between EcoClassic and myself is really fiddling around the edges. We actually agree on more things than you realise!

As far as controversies are concerned, there is much more in agreement than disputed.

And as for information, any of the websites I referenced are reliable sources that provide more than enough material for people to make a big difference to water and energy consumption.

I encourage you to go ahead and check out the SEDO site. I am fairly sure that a person of average education could easily understand it:

http://www.sedo.energy.wa.gov.au/pages/ ... t_tips.asp

Well that leaves me out then, I left school in year 8, so I would assume that is below average education?

I’m too scared to look at the link, unless it has design, colour, decoration and landscaping in it I might miss the point.

Don't feel bad Michelle, two uni degrees and I still struggle with most of the government websites on this stuff...

Depends when you left. Today's Year 12 is roughly worth last generation's Year 8.

OMG…..you know….I might have to agree with you there!
I think I left around 1975? But hey whose counting years……………………

What can I say?

I think of eco-efficient building as what any person would do to stay comfortable when they are outside.

When its hot:

- Stay in the shade - awnings, pergolas, verandahs and eaves
- Catch the cool breezes - openable windows facing the sea breezes or south winds, ceiling fans
- Wear light coloured clothing - reflective foil, paint the roof a light colour

When it is cold

- Avoid draughts and chills - create windbreaks, seal up gaps around door and windows and vents
- Find a sheltered location but stay in view of the sun - north facing glazing
- Put on warm layers - bulk insulation, double glazed windows, heavy window coverings

What, always face north and wear a cap with an overhang of 0.45H?

Yep, that's all great dynomite.... then as soon as you step in a little further it gets complicated...... and no straight answers...

Double glazing? What about the frame? Answering that question alone will eat up 18 months of your life....

How about trying to find about how exactly to plan your pipes for a future grey water system? WOW, that process has been particularly special.....

Yeah it IS all simple in theory it's the practice that's the problem.

You can tell me til you're blue in the face how simple it is.... and I'll argue just as hard back..... as soon as you actually want to impliment anything it's nothing but a pain in the arse... so people give up.

Jo

That's the reality whether you want to hear it or not.... maybe that's half the problem.... those in the know DON'T want to hear how difficult it is for the average homoeowner/builder.

This thread is a pretty good example of that.... there's been a heap of people hop on here and testify to how hard it is to implement this stuff through lack of info....

And no offence dynomite, but your last post comes across as condescending... and a perfect example of how someone with knowledge has belittled someone who is trying to understand.... because you're not hearing what the actual issue is.

So.... like a lot of other.... I give up.

I think a big part of your solution joles is to reject the guilt some of the eco-evangelists seem to try to foist on people. Just do your best -- something is a lot better than nothing. Accept the fact that we will have some impact (that is our nature as animals) and that we have many demands on our time and energy. For example:



Just use the system U-value (=glass+frame combined), don't go tinted in our climate, and don't go sliding as they leak too much air.



We just said "we want a greywater system" and our builder told us next time how they would do it, why, and for how much... we just said "OK, do it".

Simple .

Optimal? I don't know. I have to accept that I don't have time to check out every little detail to the nth degree. It's bound to be a lot better than no greywater at all.

Hi Joles

Firstly I apologise if the tone appears condescending. That was not the intention. At the same time I think you are overcomplicating some issues. I suspect you want a perfect solution and have made it an all or nothing propsition. Some of the things I mentioned are really that easy to implement. Even if they weren't done exactly correctly or with the best products on the market, you would have made a signficant difference. Anything you do is likely to be much better than your average house in Australia.

Of course there are some more technically challenging decisions e.g. hot water, grey water or photovoltaic systems. You probably can't go terribly wrong if you stayed on the mainstream. Nowadays there should be enough tradesman who can advise you on a reliable system and the paperwork that needs to go with them.

Complex choices are part of the territory with any advanced technology. Some people walk into Myers and pull a home entertainment system of the shelf. Others will read all the tech specs and go to audiophile stores to audition each component. I suspect we are actually alike and and that we are more the latter than the former. However, what we both need to realise that is not where the money is. Despite how much I know about the subject now, it came down to doing things that was pretty much down the straight and narrow.

My suggestion is first do the simple things as I mentioned. Most of your wins will come from those. You can tweak other things here and there but it won't make a HUGE difference.

I know you didn't mean it dynomite. I know you weren't meaning to be condescending. I just don't think it's as simple as you think it is.

I will have double glazing and eaves where I think it is actually beneficial... but even my frames won't be enough for some .... their pointless for some.

This is the stuff I'm talking about... I'm just sick of it.

isn't it just!!
My ideas are going through the reality check right now. Let's take SHW gas booster. We wanted to do the right thing and use gas, as it's allegedly easier on emissions and cheaper than electricity. OK. First the plumber couldn't quite figure how we can have closely coupled system with a gas booster. The only ones he was familiar with are split (collector on the roof and tank with booster down below). I sent him the instruction - ah - he said - but I'll have to change the quote, it'll cost more, 'cause I'll have to run the hot water pipes through the slab, it makes no sense to run them back into the roof from the booster. And the gas connection will cost quite a bit more, it's an old suburb, the pressure's low for an instant gas heater, will need a special pipe. And there's the question of location for that gas heater, not much space awailable....etc... etc.
How much more says I ? - well - quoth he - $1500 - $2000, at least. Hmmm, my budget's suffering from diahorrea already.
So I've rung Beasley folks and they told me that the model I've chosen would need boosting for max 12-20 days/year. And for THAT I'm supposed to use twice as much water copper pipe, replace 25m of gas pipe, have twice the distance between the SHW and the taps and pay through the nose I don't think so I'll save those $2000+ and the additional $1500 for the gas booster and put it towards photovoltaics. They'll more than make up for the electricity I'll use for heating the water.
But why haven't someone told me about all that before ? Saving me and quite a few other people a fair bit of time and hassle ???

Chris

but if you don't go sliding, then you don't get to cool the house down with breezes...

You can't have sliding with double glazing anyway donuts, only awning.

I hear you. The problem is thatit requires a paradigm shift in the industry and market. There demand still remains modest and the expertise is still limited to certain individuals and companies. We were prepared for this even knowing we were building with a Greensmart accredited builder. I'd still stick to my guns. In one sense we are still pioneers when everyone else is still only coming to terms with rising energy and water prices. People will look back at us in 10 years and realise we were ahead of our time and demonstrated good forethought.

Just to clarify... the double glazing will be everywhere... but the eaves only in selected areas. I refuse to have them on the South.... I need more light in there.

There are double glazed sliding windows - just not from some suppliers. We do them in PVC. We also do aluminium casements in double glazed - same price as awnings...

Ed

Thanks Ed... I thought double glazed were all awning or casement.... didn't realise sliding were available at all.

but do the frames leak air, as per russell's post? (I'm guessing you are not going to say 'yes' to that Eco )