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An expert in comfort - we don't all have a thick woolly cardigan and a beard like you
It that case I guess you would be happy to define mean radiant temperature and its influence upon human thermal comfort (as defined by ASHRAE - American Society of Heating, Refrigerating and Air-Conditioning) who are a leading scientific body in this area.
BTW I can't grow a beard and hate cardies.
To what end? I do know ASHRAE, I quote their analysis of air gap vs U values all the time.
I think you misunderstand comfort. Means are about saying the man with one leg in ice and one in boiling water is "on average" comfortable. Mean radiant temperature leaves out median and mode and skews, distributions and standard deviations about which hinges everything about comfort ... as I am sure you know.
If the temperature and humidity remained at a level constantly within 10 degrees of our normal comfort level, then the human body would adapt and call the new level "comfort".
The range over which temperature moves is the reason we must create our own comfort by attempting to moderate our environment by controlling the cause of the fluctuations (by sealing leaks and adding insulation) and supplementing what we can't control with heating and cooling.
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Central Vic
EcoClassic wrote:
then the human body would adapt and call the new level "comfort".
The range over which temperature moves is the reason we must create our own comfort by attempting to moderate our environment by controlling the cause of the fluctuations (by sealing leaks and adding insulation) and supplementing what we can't control with heating and cooling.
No cardi - you need double glazing...
The cardi is actually crucial.
As you say between sensible clothing and acclimatisation you can go a long way.
I am sitting here in tracksuit pants and t-shirt, feeling hot and wondering whether to take my socks off. It's 18 degrees in here, I just turned the heater down from 18.5. On the other hand my wife is sitting there shivering , otherwise I'd turn it down further. (Another factor is circadian rhythms. Most times of day I'd need a jumper and slippers if not moving about, in 18 degrees.)
then the human body would adapt and call the new level "comfort".
The range over which temperature moves is the reason we must create our own comfort by attempting to moderate our environment by controlling the cause of the fluctuations (by sealing leaks and adding insulation) and supplementing what we can't control with heating and cooling.
No cardi - you need double glazing...
The cardi is actually crucial.
As you say between sensible clothing and acclimatisation you can go a long way.
I am sitting here in tracksuit pants and t-shirt, feeling hot and wondering whether to take my socks off. It's 18 degrees in here, I just turned the heater down from 18.5. On the other hand my wife is sitting there shivering , otherwise I'd turn it down further. (Another factor is circadian rhythms. Most times of day I'd need a jumper and slippers if not moving about, in 18 degrees.)
Tracksuit pants & tee and you want to take your socks off!!! What's wrong with shorts?
Yes, me too, but I have developed a wide band of tolerance living half my life in colder climes and now sitting in an office next to tinted glass in a northerly aspect. NEVER have tinted glass in a northerly aspect it heats up and it radiates.
People often misquote circadian rhythms, but there was a mistranlation from the ancient runic texts and it's actually cardigan rhythms. It refers to Nordic knitters who noticed massive seasonal changes in demand for their wares. Without a cardi, you ain't got no rhythm.
There is also the story from the 19th Century of the wild child of Aveyron who survived unclothed in massive temperature variations, and there are many more current Russian stories the same.
Joined: 31 Oct 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Adelaide
russell wrote:
EcoClassic wrote:
then the human body would adapt and call the new level "comfort".
The range over which temperature moves is the reason we must create our own comfort by attempting to moderate our environment by controlling the cause of the fluctuations (by sealing leaks and adding insulation) and supplementing what we can't control with heating and cooling.
No cardi - you need double glazing...
The cardi is actually crucial.
As you say between sensible clothing and acclimatisation you can go a long way.
Russell,
You make two important points
a) Thermal comfort is part physiological and part psychological - acclimatisation is an important factor
b) Eco-housing is as much changing human behaviour as altering the habitat
When I was boarding at University, there was a guy I knew who in the middle of winter would open up the window, have his heater going full bore and strip down to his shorts and T-shirt. I pointed out this odd consistency bu he said he preferred this arrangement because of the freedom his light clothing gave him and the fresh ventilation he could get.
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Central Vic
Tell me about it -- I'm sitting in a sweltering office being cooked by an evil electric fan heater because my office mate likes it that way . I'll come in to work in a short-sleeved shirt, 20 degrees outside and she will be in here with a jumper on and the heater going . Being electric makes it that much worse, too.
Last edited by russell on Nov 21, 2008 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: 31 Oct 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Adelaide
EcoClassic wrote:
To what end? I do know ASHRAE, I quote their analysis of air gap vs U values all the time.
I think you misunderstand comfort. Means are about saying the man with one leg in ice and one in boiling water is "on average" comfortable. No cardi - you need double glazing...
Excellent. So you understand what I mean. Now explain to the readers:
- How does mean radiant temperature and air temperature interact to produce human thermal comfort
- The comparative magnitude of solar radiant gain through a section of double glazing versus its convective loss.
- In what way is mean radiant temperature altered with double glazing
- How do windows result in an uneven distribution of radiant heat within a room
To what end? I do know ASHRAE, I quote their analysis of air gap vs U values all the time.
I think you misunderstand comfort. Means are about saying the man with one leg in ice and one in boiling water is "on average" comfortable. No cardi - you need double glazing...
Excellent. So you understand what I mean. Now explain to the readers:
- How does mean radiant temperature and air temperature interact to produce human thermal comfort - The comparative magnitude of solar radiant gain through a section of double glazing versus its convective loss. - In what way is mean radiant temperature altered with double glazing - How do windows result in an uneven distribution of radiant heat within a room
I don't think so... I think you want me to explain what you mean so you can understand it.
Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 650 Location: Sydney, The Ponds
EcoClassic wrote:
dymonite69 wrote:
EcoClassic wrote:
To what end? I do know ASHRAE, I quote their analysis of air gap vs U values all the time.
I think you misunderstand comfort. Means are about saying the man with one leg in ice and one in boiling water is "on average" comfortable. No cardi - you need double glazing...
Excellent. So you understand what I mean. Now explain to the readers:
- How does mean radiant temperature and air temperature interact to produce human thermal comfort - The comparative magnitude of solar radiant gain through a section of double glazing versus its convective loss. - In what way is mean radiant temperature altered with double glazing - How do windows result in an uneven distribution of radiant heat within a room
I don't think so... I think you want me to explain what you mean so you can understand it.
and this thread has now turned into exactly what Jo was angry about in the first place
_________________ Stevep79 & Principessa Finished building Wisdom Homes Impression 33mkII in The Ponds, Sydney http://lilypadintheponds.blogspot.com
Joined: 31 Oct 2008 Posts: 1639 Location: Adelaide
joles wrote:
Exactly stevep79.... I was just going to let them keep proving my point...
As I said Joles, you can ignore all that scientific guff.
All the information you ever want is out there on the National and State government websites at:
Your Home
Sustainability Victoria
SEDO (in WA)
HEAT (in the ACT)
Everything written is simple to understand, practical and authoritative.
I was like you 18 months ago - a complete novice.
The only reason I got into the science is because I wanted to know if it was too good to be true. I have always had a fascination and enjoyment of the physics. None of this is important to the average layperson but I felt I needed to satisfy myself that the information was reliable. For all intents and purposes it is.
Everything about our new house build reflects the simple messages on those websites - orientation, shading, insulation and ventilation. We are just using the free sun and wind out there. There is nothing fancy, exotic or terribly expensive (except for our double glazed windows). I would expect to half my electricity bill (if not more) because of this.
I am happy to put my money where my mouth is. If you decided to follow the same principles you will unlikely to be disappointed by the results.
Exactly stevep79.... I was just going to let them keep proving my point...
U Value or Me Value?
This thread and others contain some scientific bumf and some non-scientific bumf. You get to choose which interests you... be fair and leave those who want to discuss the science to their thing. If you want explanations just ask. Every item of content can't cater for every level of reader by being scientific and non-scientific at the same time.
Be glad that there are those on this forum who do understand the science and are willing to challenge each other and put in the time and effort to help one another. Without them you are blind and at the mercy of salesmen who may say anything to get a sale.
I do not understand it all and welcome the shared knowledge.
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Central Vic
Likewise. I agree that in the end it boils down to what dymonite so succinctly expressed in one sentence.
The only reason I go any further is intellectual curiosity. It's not really necessary.
Maybe we need an "irrelevant nerds" sub-forum to move all this stuff to to avoid confusing the normal people .
_________________ "Now, supposing a house to have a southern aspect, sunshine during winter will steal in under the verandah, but in summer, when the sun traverses a path right over our heads, the roof will afford an agreeable shade, will it not?" -- Socrates, ca. 400 BC
Joined: 24 Oct 2008 Posts: 650 Location: Sydney, The Ponds
EcoClassic wrote:
joles wrote:
Exactly stevep79.... I was just going to let them keep proving my point...
U Value or Me Value?
This thread and others contain some scientific bumf and some non-scientific bumf. You get to choose which interests you... be fair and leave those who want to discuss the science to their thing. If you want explanations just ask. Every item of content can't cater for every level of reader by being scientific and non-scientific at the same time.
Be glad that there are those on this forum who do understand the science and are willing to challenge each other and put in the time and effort to help one another. Without them you are blind and at the mercy of salesmen who may say anything to get a sale.
I do not understand it all and welcome the shared knowledge.
Ed
Don't get me wrong, I love that sort of talk, you can learn a lot from it but this thread in particular is a rant against such things and so I just imagine that it's making the op angrier :p (don't take it personally that I chose to make my point at the time you were posting, it just worked out that way)
I say we open threads in Eco Living especially for this kind of talk because it is a widely debated issue and there really isn't enough information out there for us all to actually consider ourselves informed!
_________________ Stevep79 & Principessa Finished building Wisdom Homes Impression 33mkII in The Ponds, Sydney http://lilypadintheponds.blogspot.com
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 201 Location: Central Vic
Michelle wrote:
Well I’ve read this a few times…..maybe it’s the scotch, but you lost me.
I'm not drinking scotch . I'm drinking beer .
_________________ "Now, supposing a house to have a southern aspect, sunshine during winter will steal in under the verandah, but in summer, when the sun traverses a path right over our heads, the roof will afford an agreeable shade, will it not?" -- Socrates, ca. 400 BC
Just wanted to remind what the rant was actually about..... don't get me wrong, I enjoy the debate and the information offered, and I believe you are all educated about the topic..... yet there is not total agreement, there are not clear answers..... and that is exactly the point of my rant...
This was my original post and what steve and I were referring to when we are saying that the last few pages of discussion proved my point....
joles wrote:
This is my rant to no-one in particular....... but I'm tipping I speak for a few people.
There's a couple of really simple reason why people don't bother to build efficient houses. And it's not because of price which is what most people think....
Most people don't want to go back to uni and obtain a four year degree in physics to pick which friggin' windows to have.
No matter what option you choose... it's not enough. Double glazed? Sure. Wrong frames so what's the point? It doesn't matter what you do..... it's still not efficient enough.... Grey water system?.... no-one will tell you (including the stupid people who sell the systems) exactly how your plumbing needs to be set up during the build......
I've been trying to do the right thing, I really have been, and it's costing an arm and a leg.....
But I'm done.
I'll be deleting most of the eco options from the build.... No one knows what they're doing, no-one, including the authorities set up to help, have any idea how to help the consumer who hasn't got masses of technical knowledge.
I've got better things to do than get a uni degree just to read half these bloody tables to make a decision.....
I'll build a thermally inefficient piece of crap house and pay through the nose for my heating and coooling... at least it's a decision I understand.
I'll build again when the information to build efficiently is available in simple terms to the lay man.
I'm not an idiot but I'm lost... I've got a life and I'm not prepared to sacrifice every ounce of energy and time I have in order to get the right bloody window.
You want me to be eco? Fine but don't make me sell my soul, bankrupt myself and constantly be made to feel intellectually inadequate just because I need to ask questions.
I'm sick of being made to feel like an idiot because I haven't got a science degree.
I WANT SIMPLE TO READ, READILY AVAILABLE INFORMATION AND ADVICE. Then I'll be on board, until then, the eco build movement has lost me.
_________________ I leave you to fend for yourself, figure things out yourself.
. I'll come in to work in a short-sleeved shirt, 20 degrees outside and she will be in here with a jumper on and the heater going 
. Being electric makes it that much worse, too.
.
.
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