Browse Forums Owner Builder Forum Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 6Feb 11, 2015 4:28 pm I have a little story regarding what was considered to be a reno at the time..
Many years ago (when I was a child), our neighbours (two elderly women) lived in what was an old fishing shack. The shack was perched on top of a sand dune over looking the beach. Originally, a long, long time ago this house was built by a fisherman. Over several generations, verandahs were added. These were subsequently enclosed and additional verandahs added so the house slowly grew but the original house remained unrenovated and became dark and landlocked. Over many generations suburbia slowly encroached on this house. The two elderly women could not maintain the house and it slowly deteriorated. Eventually the house came on the market and was bought by a millionaire who planned to knock it down and build a beachfront holiday house. The council refused the building application as the house did not comply with present day boundary setbacks and exceeded the allowable plot ratios, however the new owner was allowed to repair the house but could not add to it or change its external shape or size. The house was in poor structural condition so new foundation were poured inside the existing with the existing roof propped. Existing internal walls damaged by rising damp and subsiding foundation were progressively demolished and new walls progressively built (in new locations on the new foundations and within the existing building envelope). Many walls were demolished and not rebuilt to open up the inside of the house. The existing external timber windows had severe wood rot and were replaced with glass curtain walling. All that was left was to resheet the roof as the existing roof was severely rusted due to exposure to sea spray. All this work was done in stages and within the council guidelines at the time. At the end of these renovations the new owner now effectively had a brand new house built within the existing external envelope and siting in a prime beachside location sitting on top of its sand dune over looking the beach. This was not an owner build or DIY, it was a project run by building professionals who knew the regulations and how to get the best outcome for their client. Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 7Feb 11, 2015 6:02 pm Thanks for all of the replies guys. $11,000 is the threshold that seems to apply in QLD. Beetaloo actually raised an important point that was missing from my initial query. That being what about if I do the renovation in stages? So total reno will cost more than 11k but may take several years and might not cost more than 11k for 'individual renovations' . There doesn't seem to be any time limits associated with work and this seems to be a bit of a grey area. What Qebtel says is about what I suspected before asking the question on here: Quote: No one takes any notice of this cockamamy law, just keep it all under wraps, no one is going to see what you're renovating inside. As Matt1 said, dont put yourself in a position where people can dob you in. The BSA have told me informally they dont enforce reno compliance on homeowners (unless a complaint is made apparently) . Does anyone else think the one permit every six years rule is a bit rubbish? Every 3-4 years seems a bit more reasonable. Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 8Feb 11, 2015 6:54 pm Stewie D Matt1 there are differences between what the states require as opposed to what the local councils use as guidelines. As per my post above for NSW and what Qebtel has told you as required by Queensland these are for the states only. Our local council requires any change in more than 40% of an existing house or an increase in floor area of the same amount, it is basically deemed a new house and most of the guidelines for a new house will apply. They will of course let you vary those rules on a case by case basis as they regard all sites to be one of a kind and give you a certain amount of leeway to accommodate the existing or remaining structure. Leaving one wall up and calling it a reno and our council would laugh at you. Stewie It did seem like an odd quirk and the fact the owners tried to build basically a whole new house without the neighbours getting any kind of input probably led to the "dobbing in" when the wall fell down (I wouldn't be surprised if they pushed it down). Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 9Feb 11, 2015 7:51 pm chode1984 Does anyone else think the one permit every six years rule is a bit rubbish? Every 3-4 years seems a bit more reasonable. As a Queensland Owner Builder, I think 6 years is just way too long, and 3-4 years as you suggested seems more reasonable. I can understand why they don't want OB's to be building a new home every year, as you would them become a de facto builder, which would clearly be wrong. I have no intentions of selling within 10 years, let alone 6 years and I would do another OB, as I have learnt from this experience. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 10Feb 12, 2015 9:14 pm Ok so 6 years does seem a bit too heavy. In Vic it's 3. And even then if it is a alteration/addition they usually don't count it against you and grant you a second OB permit. So it could be worth checking if it's similar up there. Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 11Feb 13, 2015 12:12 pm chode1984 Beetaloo actually raised an important point that was missing from my initial query. That being what about if I do the renovation in stages? So total reno will cost more than 11k but may take several years and might not cost more than 11k for 'individual renovations' . There doesn't seem to be any time limits associated with work and this seems to be a bit of a grey area. chode1984 Does anyone else think the one permit every six years rule is a bit rubbish? Every 3-4 years seems a bit more reasonable. I think they arrived at the 6 years by concluding (in Qld anyway) that 6 yrs is how long, on average, home owners holds on to a house for before selling. I dont support having state govt - it's a useless layer. The fact that it is 3 years in Vic shows how stupid having the middle tier of state Govt is in Australia. It should be the same everywhere - no reason for it to be different state to state. Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 12Feb 13, 2015 12:20 pm Beetaloo Eventually the house came on the market and was bought by a millionaire who planned to knock it down and build a beachfront holiday house. The council refused the building application as the house did not comply with present day boundary setbacks and exceeded the allowable plot ratios, however the new owner was allowed to repair the house but could not add to it or change its external shape or size. The house was in poor structural condition so new foundation were poured inside the existing with the existing roof propped. Existing internal walls damaged by rising damp and subsiding foundation were progressively demolished and new walls progressively built (in new locations on the new foundations and within the existing building envelope). Many walls were demolished and not rebuilt to open up the inside of the house. The existing external timber windows had severe wood rot and were replaced with glass curtain walling. All that was left was to resheet the roof as the existing roof was severely rusted due to exposure to sea spray. All this work was done in stages and within the council guidelines at the time. At the end of these renovations the new owner now effectively had a brand new house built within the existing external envelope and siting in a prime beachside location sitting on top of its sand dune over looking the beach. IF you are ever stuck in a heritage classified house (according to your council, not a state heritage listed house) you'll find you may not be allowed to demolish it . But what you can do is alter its external character bit by bit until it looks nothing like it originally did. Then council could not refuse a demolition application. Its a long winded way of going about it, but if the land is worth it? Edit: added bolded word Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 13Feb 15, 2015 5:59 pm I would class as follows 1) a renovation as changing or altering a building internally only. That is inside its existing footprint.or building envelope. You might move an internal wall or relocate a bathroom internally, or just rebuild / repairs an existing area. That's a Reno in my book. 2) Then there's an extension. Possibly removing some of the old, adding and extending to what's already there thus changing the external building footprint. 3) Then you have a complete from scratch new build. For 2 and 3 above you would need pretty much the same. plans drawn and approved, a council permit and all the usual thngs when building a new structure, as well as a builders or owner builders licence. For option 1 other than complying with licensed trades and if moving walls possibly some engineering you shouldn't need an OB licence. https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 14Feb 15, 2015 8:01 pm Thanks for all of the replies. What does project management refer to then? You always see people "project managing" their own build. If you don't want to do any of the physical build yourself but just manage all of the different trades and contractors do you still require an owner builder permit? Cheers Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 15Feb 15, 2015 11:21 pm chode1984 Thanks for all of the replies. What does project management refer to then? You always see people "project managing" their own build. If you don't want to do any of the physical build yourself but just manage all of the different trades and contractors do you still require an owner builder permit? Cheers Yes you need a OB permit if you want to oversee your own project and choose who you engage to work on that project. You have 2 choices You either engage a Registered builder who has a building licence. He will draw up a contract and complete the project as per contract for an agreed fee. Or you act as the builder and register As an owner builder you take on that role. You might just organise trades and not do anything hands on other than managing and organising others to do their jobs, that is being the project manager. If you don't feel comfortble doing that some people hire Project managers to guide them whilst they owner build. Personally I can't see the point of that as you are paying someone else do what a builder would and you as owner builder take all the risk or ultimate responsible for the job being completed correctly. You may as well just pay a builder to start with and be done with it IMO. The buck stop with whoever is the builder. Be it owner builder or registered builder. They (or you) are responsible to make sure the job is completed and completed to code. https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 16Feb 16, 2015 9:28 am Thanks for that detailed response Rob. Congrats on your reno/build btw. House looks awesome. I'm in a situation where we are looking to split our 855sqm block and totally redo the current QLDer on one side and add another QLDer on the other side. Whilst I work in a totally different field (aviation), I've spent the last few years studying for a diploma of building design and will have this completed in the near future. I was hoping to manage the work on both of these until I realised you could only OB once every six years. Is there any reason my wife couldn't apply for an OB permit? In other words is the permit one per person every six years or one per household every six years? Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 17Feb 16, 2015 11:14 am You will find that the owners of the block of land become technically become owner builders... be nice if you could do what you suggest though. My now 85 year old mother owns the block of dirt where I'm building, and she's also the owner builder... not likely she needs the licence though. This is in Queensland. Owner Building at Jimboomba Woods in Logan City Qld. Blog : http://bandlnewhomebuild.blogspot.com H1 thread : viewtopic.php?f=38&t=68283 . Re: Where does the definition of a renovation stop? 18Feb 16, 2015 11:57 am chode1984 Thanks for that detailed response Rob. Congrats on your reno/build btw. House looks awesome. I'm in a situation where we are looking to split our 855sqm block and totally redo the current QLDer on one side and add another QLDer on the other side. Whilst I work in a totally different field (aviation), I've spent the last few years studying for a diploma of building design and will have this completed in the near future. I was hoping to manage the work on both of these until I realised you could only OB once every six years. Is there any reason my wife couldn't apply for an OB permit? In other words is the permit one per person every six years or one per household every six years? I think the OB permit relies on the Title deads so it would depend on who the name of the property is registered in. If one was yourself and one your wife then easy. Permit goes in each of your names. For Joint applications not 100% sure. I've also heard of people who have "Friends" that have a Builders licence using their licence for the application and still ultimately Owner building themselves. So there are ways around the system but you need to be creative and know people well. Another option might be to not Divide your land until after you have completed the build. Apply for the construction of the 2 Dwellings at the same time under the one OB permit. (Just a detached building after all) Once the houses are built then Sub divide the land. That though would depend on your council allowing you to build the 2 structures without splitting the land first. But they might be OK with that, you would need to speak to them. I'd call your OB office and council, explain what you want to do and see what they say. No harm in asking. https://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=44762 My Owner builder journey extending a 1930's Bungalow Hello Josh, This is Irving from PRIMA, we are a manufacturer of the staircase, railings, kitchen cabinets, windows, doors from China. If you have requirement to purchase… 0 5741 Coming back to your old stomping grounds, huh? Renovations on a budget can be quite the journey. It's like giving your house a new lease on life. The twist of not knowing… 1 3573 Assuming the structure of your cabinetry is good then I would DIY everything as follows: - replace your counter tops entirely, - replace all drawer runners with soft close… 1 4905 |