Browse Forums Flooring & Floor Covering 1 Mar 20, 2008 10:45 pm I am presently doing a three day training course, on carpet installation and repairs.
Some interesting things have emerged. Basically, there are hardly any carpets that are layed correctly these days! In a way it's no surprise though.... the age of fine craftsmanship is more a distant memory in so many trades, and this is no exception. Add to this the pressures to do the job quickly and cheaply, and is it reasonable to expect a perfect job? There are many short-cuts that are common practice, almost to the point that proper standards are very rare! So what is not being done that should?....... For starters, carpet should not be layed on a new slab. International Standards require that for a 150mm slab, it is given at least 6 months to dry & cure before carpets are fitted. Carpets should all be fitted drum tight, using a power-stretcher. Most layers only ever use a kicker, and carpet is loose laid at best. There are many other common poor practices.... incorrect smoothedge, carpet laid in wrong direction, edges not sealed etc....... the list goes on & on! What to do about it .... a hard one! Do some homework in you area and see if you can find a layer that lays according to Australian Standards. (Doing every installation with a power stretcher is a good start). And be prepared to pay more! A quality installation can double the effective lifespan of your carpets! Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 2Mar 20, 2008 11:31 pm Hi Ash,
Thanks for your tips. Are there currently Aus Standards that apply to this that we all can either go by or take back to our carpet layers and say "this is the standard and stick to it" or should we just take it upon ourselves to specify that the international standards are adhered to. Thanks, Adam Re: Proper carpet laying 3Mar 21, 2008 2:03 am Yes, the standard that applies to stretch in carpet installations is AS/NZS 2455. 1:1995.
Here is a typical carpet manufacturer's recommendations... http://www.redbookcarpets.com/pdf/redbo ... ooklet.pdf "Homeowner Obligations Under the Redbook Carpets Warranties In order to maintain and protect your coverage under the terms of these warranties you must do the following: • Keep proof of purchase in the form of a bill, invoice, or statement from your retailer showing the price you paid for the carpet, together with proof of installation date. • Have your carpet installed according to the guidelines outlined in the Australian and New Zealand Standard AS/NZS-2455 and otherwise in accordance with the guidelines set out in this guide and maintain your carpet with regular vacuuming and cleaning. • Be able to show proof of periodic steam cleaning by a reputable professional cleaning service at least every 2 years. A bill, invoice, or statement showing cleaning service with description of the cleaning service provided will serve as proof. Depending on the level of traffic, family size, soil conditions adjacent to the home and other circumstances, more frequent cleaning may be advisable. Steam cleaning when carried out, should be in accordance with Australian and New Zealand carpet cleaning and maintenance standard AS/NZS 3733-1995. Warranties should also be validated by submission of the completed warranty form within 30 days of installation of your Redbook carpet." Scroll down to page 6. You'll see that the installation procedures are very specific. The thing is though, most layers have total disregard and/or ignorance of this standard. Chances are that if you asked if he was laying to the Standard, he would give empty assurances that he is, but NOT be able to substantiate the claim. Best thing I think is to be very assertive at the point of sale, with quotes specifying laying to the Standard in writing. Ask for the layers' qualifications, and ask him to show you a copy of the Standard. Maybe ask the manufacturer to provide a list of 'approved' layers, (especially since they stipulate that not doing so can void any warranties). A good tip is to request that ONLY commercial smoothedge (with 3 rows of nails) be used in any installation. Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 6Mar 23, 2008 2:30 pm Finished the course yesterday, and after some discussions with the instructor, have this advice if you are shopping for carpets;
Shop around until you have chosen your desired carpets. If the store is quoting to supply and lay, get your quote firstly. Then ask them if the laying will be "layed in accordance with Australian Standards and manufacturers standards". They likely will say "YES". Then ask them to specify that before you sign the contract, and let them know that you WILL hold them to every jot and tittle of the contract, and ask them to ensure that the layer understands that. Let them know that if it is NOT layed correctly, you will expect it to be redone. Alternatively, contact the manufacturer of the carpet you've chosen. Ask them for a list of layers that can lay according to their specs. You might find this makes them a bit uneasy. But if you have paid your deposit and entered into a contract, they are legally bound to fulfill the terms agreed to. The amount they have allowed for laying might be say $700. The layers might normally do the job to basic standards in say 4 hours. To do it properly, may take them 8 hours (and buy a power stretcher as well). If they are not able to, the store is obliged to get in a qualified layer who can! Please don't arrange this if there are time constraints. They might have to wait to get a really qualified layer in. Here's a few of the Standard's specifications (as I recall them); Floor prep is important. Slabs must be sufficiently dried & cured, clean and level. Flaws, and irregular surfaces filled or repaired, so surface is flat. Underlay should meet manufacturer's spec for the carpet. Underlay must be secured to floor and joins must be taped. Smoothedge must be very well secured with no movement. Commercial (3 rows of pins) smoothedge is preferred to allow for extra strain of powerstretching. Domestic (2 rows of pins) is only acceptable in smallish rooms. Carpet edges must all be sealed at seams, and allowed to dry before seaming. There should be as few seams as possible, and cross-seams avoided wherever possible. Powerstretching is a MUST! Using a knee-kicker alone is NOT acceptable. Carpet should be drum tight. NOTE: Many common problems, premature wear & failure of carpets are avoided and overcome, when layed correctly. Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 7Mar 24, 2008 10:50 pm *****UPDATE*****
I just ordered a copy of the Standard, and found that it has been updated about 6 months ago. Here's a link to the Standard AS/NZS 2455.1.2007 http://www.saiglobal.com/shop/Script/De ... 33784275AT Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 8Mar 25, 2008 4:12 pm Thanks for that information Ash, i'll be chasing it up shortly with our flooring supplier.
Can you possibly give us any indication of the difference in pricing between an installer/layer that would use a power stretcher Vs someone who would use the knee-kicker??? Just so that i have more "ammo" when i approach our supplier that's all..... Re: Proper carpet laying 9Mar 25, 2008 4:35 pm A fair question Phoe, but in reality, there are precious few who powerstretch as standard practice, so its hard to say. Maybe double price is fair?
Best thing is to ask the manufacturer of the carpet you've chosen who they recommend. Even then, the layer may not normally do so! Its a great disparity that the manufacturer can specify a Standard of installation, yet virtually nobody actually lays to the Standard! Here's a tip for you though..... The guy who is the trainer in the certified course I just completed lives in Melbourne (when he is not travelling around the country & overseas training). You might be able to twist his arm to lay, or know who locally you can count on. I'll PM you his number. Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 10Apr 17, 2008 5:22 pm royalblue There are many other common poor practices.... incorrect smoothedge, carpet laid in wrong direction, edges not sealed etc....... the list goes on & on! What to do about it .... a hard one! Do some homework in you area and see if you can find a layer that lays according to Australian Standards. (Doing every installation with a power stretcher is a good start). And be prepared to pay more! A quality installation can double the effective lifespan of your carpets! Ash. It's an interesting issue and probably created by society itself. Everyone wants it quicker, faster and cheaper but when you stop to think about it, aren't really happy with the result. Remember the saying about the bitterness of a poor job remaining after the sweetness of a cheap price has faded. It is very important to know what you expect from a job and also exactly what you are buying. The cheapest price is the usually the cheapest for a reason. That is not an excuse for ** workmanship though. Regarding carpet specifically, ask lot's of questions. Ask for a plan showing which way the carpet will run in your house and exactly where the joins will be. Buy the better quality underlay, buy a good quality carpet and pay for a quality job. Ask for their best installer and tell them that you are fussy. It is your money, get the best value for it. Re: Proper carpet laying 11Apr 17, 2008 6:42 pm HF123 Everyone wants it quicker, faster and cheaper but when you stop to think about it, aren't really happy with the result. Remember the saying about the bitterness of a poor job remaining after the sweetness of a cheap price has faded. It is very important to know what you expect from a job and also exactly what you are buying. The cheapest price is the usually the cheapest for a reason. That is not an excuse for ** workmanship though. Regarding carpet specifically, ask lot's of questions. Ask for a plan showing which way the carpet will run in your house and exactly where the joins will be. Buy the better quality underlay, buy a good quality carpet and pay for a quality job. Ask for their best installer and tell them that you are fussy. It is your money, get the best value for it. Very well put HF! Far too often consumers spend much of their energies saving a dollar, and forget this reality! Great to have you around. BTW are you female? Ash. Re: Proper carpet laying 14Apr 18, 2008 10:58 pm HF123 royalblue BTW are you female? Ash. Are you buying the drinks? LOL, funnily enough Ash, your question was not actually answered. I'd be checking all credentials before booking any "rooms" if i were you!!!! Re: Proper carpet laying 16Apr 18, 2008 11:03 pm HF123 Oh, btw, I'm not female I'm a straight male Hahahaha...told you!!!! Better luck next time Ash!!!! By the way, welcome to the forum, HF123!!! Re: Proper carpet laying 18Apr 19, 2008 10:26 pm Ash, where did you get that idea about power stretching? Is that in the standard somewhere, or just something an instructor told you?
I did the equivalent of an apprentice flooring installer in the US for about 3 years. In the US, I was a "helper" to my step brother who was the licensed contractor. Probably 30% of what we did was carpet. I disagree with you on needing a power stretcher for all carpet installations. We used it on the very large rooms and hallways, but not in bedrooms or smaller areas. Granted, I think the context of what you are saying is whole house installations, but I think it's worth mentioning the difference. Greg Re: Proper carpet laying 19Apr 20, 2008 12:40 am Hi Greg,
It was BOTH what the instructor told and showed us, AND what is in the Standard. Also, what is specified by carpet manufacturers. Yet, (as you have indicated) it is NOT common practice. It may be a fair comment, that power stretching is not NEEDED in all cases. Clearly, many layers get by without power-stretching at all. But the finished result is not a real quality installation. The fact is, a joint technical committee comprising of representatives of 13 various organisations have together produced the Australian/New Zealand Standard 2455.1:2007. To quote directly from the Standard under the section relating to stretch in installations..... [Section 3.4 Stretching (d) Textile floor coverings shall be laid using a suitable power stretcher aided by a knee-kicker or a tubeless power stretcher (restretcher). NOTE: Textile floor coverings should not be stretched using a knee-kicker. A knee-kicker is used to secure carpet onto gripper.] I expect that similar Standards of installation would apply in the USA & elsewhere too. Basically though, a quicker job is done without adhering to these standards, and 'rough enough' is deemed acceptable by the industry. Those like yourself are taught that way by your peers and you see it as the norm and accepted way of doing things, and so it goes on! Besides any of this, the practice of stretching a carpet with a knee-kicker is tremendously harmful to the layer. Constant high impact knee-kicking places great stress on your spine & joints, and does result in many layers having debilitating back problems. Most have retired within 20 years because of these practices and their injuries. It is in breach of Worksafe laws to continue with such unsafe work practices. Need I say more? But thanks for letting us know about your experience. It confirms the point I originally made, that most carpets in homes are not laid correctly. As a carpet cleaner, I see this on an almost daily basis. Cheers! Ash. I'm based in Adelaide and I'm considering purchasing a house and land package from Weeks Homes. I found a deal that looks good, but there's a complication: the land isn't… 0 493 I'm about to put down some Merbau. Is it necessary to oil underneath the boards before laying? 0 2563 Hey There. No problems re jumping in. My original question was "should I have waterproofed" the concrete slab before putting batons down. We have been told we should… 7 4796 |