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$50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?
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Author:  dstme [ Oct 24, 2011 7:21 pm ]
Post subject:  $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

Hi everyone,

I bought a house last year and is now rented out. I'm planning to move in sometime next year so I'm putting coins to my piggy bank each day now.
I'm wondering how much will it cost to do a renovation. If it too much, I might need to double my effort to put more coins or I might just abandon the project.

My place is in Melbourne, a double stories - 4 bedrooms (3 bed in level 1, 1 master in level 2), 2 bathroom (one in each level) and double garage. As this place was last renovated since late 70s, I'm planning to tear down top floor, redesign and expand from the current size to accommodate 1 master bedroom, home office, walk-in bathroom, waiting room and a store room. I also need to change the spiral staircase to normal U-shape staircase. On the first level, I will do some renovation too but no extension.

I have no idea how to estimate the renovation cost and not sure what the budget I need to set aside. Can anyone help me how to estimate cost based on the above?

To save cost, is it possible some of the renovation to be carried out by myself or is it better to leave it all to builder?

Do I still need to submit any application to the council?

Cheers.

Author:  chrisandkate [ Oct 25, 2011 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

dstme dstme
I'm planning to tear down top floor, redesign and expand from the current size to accommodate 1 master bedroom, home office, walk-in bathroom, waiting room and a store room.


When you say tear dwn, do you mean completely demolish the top level and build a new one or just gut the top level?

dstme dstme
I also need to change the spiral staircase to normal U-shape staircase.


Why do you need to change the stairs? Is it because of the layout of the proposed new top level

dstme dstme
On the first level, I will do some renovation too but no extension.


What do you want to do downstairs? Kitchens and bathrooms are the most expensive areas to renovate, so that will impact your budget.

dstme dstme
I have no idea how to estimate the renovation cost and not sure what the budget I need to set aside. Can anyone help me how to estimate cost based on the above?


You need to list all of the things you want to do first. It may only cost you $10k or it may be closer to $1m depending on what work you want to do, the quality if fittings and how much you can do yourself.

dstme dstme
To save cost, is it possible some of the renovation to be carried out by myself or is it better to leave it all to builder?


You cannot do any electrical work yourself. There are certain things that you need a plumber for like gas connections and other things. I would not tackle any structural works yourself if you are a novice. If you are brand new to renovating I would limit the work you do yourself to painting, plaster, trimmings(skirting/architraves) fitting of taps, cupboard assembly if they are in flat pack form + handles.

dstme dstme
Do I still need to submit any application to the council?


Depending on your council you will need a permit based on the total cost of your renovation. I think my council requires a permit for anything over $5k value + any new plumbing(such as adding a toilet or shower)

In Summary:

You will definitely need a permit. To get this you will need to provide detail drawing to a professional standard and various other documents.
You may need an engineer (If you want to completely demolish the top level and start again)
You will need a qualified Electrician to do any electrical work (even taking a power point off the wall requires a licensed Electrician)
You may need a Plumber (If you want to replace/exchange gas appliances) and possibly water-proofing(not sure on that point)

Off the top of my head I'd say you're looking closer to $500k that $50 even if you could do it all your self.

Author:  Stewie D [ Oct 25, 2011 11:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

Work out how many sq metres the new top storey is and then allow approx $2500-$3000 per sq m just to build it.
That basically covers materials, PC items, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, tiling , roof tiling etc.
Everything except carpets and curtains
Obviously demolition, council fees , draughtsman fees, any structural changes you have to make to support the top storey etc are on top of that.
This will get you into the ballpark of what you need.

Quote:
Why do you need to change the stairs? Is it because of the layout of the proposed new top level ?


Because they are dangerous and unless they are absolutely the only way of installing a staircase , they should be replaced at any opportunity. ( Well my take on it anyway and that is what I recommend to all my clients ).

Stewie

Author:  dstme [ Oct 25, 2011 3:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

chrisandkate chrisandkate
When you say tear dwn, do you mean completely demolish the top level and build a new one or just gut the top level?

The current top level is too small and too old, so I'm planning to demolish the whole level and rebuild with a new level. My guess is, it would be easier and cheaper to tear down and rebuild. Am I right?

chrisandkate chrisandkate
Why do you need to change the stairs? Is it because of the layout of the proposed new top level

Stewie is right, partly we don't really fancy spiral stairs and it is difficult and dangerous to move things up and down. By moving the stairs away from the current spot, it will create a larger area and better design. I'm not sure how much is a new stairs will cost, but definitely must replace the current stairs.

Please have a look at the attached design. The image is a bit tiny. Any comment? I think it is easier to estimate based on my rough drawing.
   ⋅  Add a comment  ⋅  Pin to Ideaboard  ⋅  

chrisandkate chrisandkate
You cannot do any electrical work yourself. There are certain things that you need a plumber for like gas connections and other things. I would not tackle any structural works yourself if you are a novice. If you are brand new to renovating I would limit the work you do yourself to painting, plaster, trimmings(skirting/architraves) fitting of taps, cupboard assembly if they are in flat pack form + handles.

I agree, I would be limited in work like painting, plastering and other minor stuffs. I would leave structural works to the experts.

Sad to say in Victoria, we need to hire electrician even for a minor electrical fittings. That may blow away my budget.
Is it easy to apply for engineer and what is the cost like for hiring engineer and draftsman in Maroondah area? My area is managed by the same council as yours. :z:

Stewie D Stewie D
Work out how many sq metres the new top storey is and then allow approx $2500-$3000 per sq m just to build it.
That basically covers materials, PC items, carpentry, electrical, plumbing, tiling , roof tiling etc.
Everything except carpets and curtains

Is this a good estimate in Melbourne? After estimating just the top floor, it costs us the same as buying another property. ::cry::

Author:  chrisandkate [ Oct 26, 2011 10:53 am ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

I'll list my reasons for why I think a knock down re-build will be better below all of the replies to this.

dstme dstme
The current top level is too small and too old, so I'm planning to demolish the whole level and rebuild with a new level. My guess is, it would be easier and cheaper to tear down and rebuild. Am I right?


In all honesty I think you should start looking at knock down re-build because you will end up spending way more on this extension than you could expect to get back in the next 10-20yrs IMO

dstme dstme
Stewie is right, partly we don't really fancy spiral stairs and it is difficult and dangerous to move things up and down. By moving the stairs away from the current spot, it will create a larger area and better design. I'm not sure how much is a new stairs will cost, but definitely must replace the current stairs.


If you stick with a renovation + redo of extension, could you consider moving the store room and office down stairs? From the sound of it you'll be needing to carry things up and down a lot(??) and if that is the case I would negate it completely by moving the office and store rooms to the lower level


dstme dstme
Is it easy to apply for engineer and what is the cost like for hiring engineer and draftsman in Maroondah area? My area is managed by the same council as yours. :z:


First off you would get your drawings done with everything you want (I mean everything) then an engineer can look at them and design the required parts to suit.

I used the Engineer my builder uses for our retaining wall design. not cheap, but seems to know what He's doing. Can't help with draftsman.


dstme dstme
Is this a good estimate in Melbourne? After estimating just the top floor, it costs us the same as buying another property. ::cry::


Yes that is what I believe to be the correct range for Melbourne. In fact I would make it $2750-3500 depending on your taste for appliances and such.

What is the overall size of the house (currently and post extension)???

Our extension quotes were around $2400m2 not including new kitchen, fittings or any site works(had to cut and retain)

Our knock down rebuild will cost us slightly less than the extension after all is said and done.

See below for areas I think will cost a lot or hinder you going forward.

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If you want to start looking into costs for knock down rebuild. I'd put $20k at the top of you list for demolition. Its a figure that should cover you unless you have a heap of asbestos to get rid of.


Below is a post of mine from a different extension vs rebuild thread with the scenario we were facing

chrisandkate chrisandkate
It depends on how much room you are starting with.

My scenario: From another thread
chrisandkate chrisandkate
After getting quotes for extensions in Melbourne about a year ago, I have to say that $1500per m2 is too low.

Try $2500m2 as a basic fitted out extension. This DOES NOT include any renovation of your existing house.

This was our rough idea with costs.

Add 100m2 to an existing 101m2 house (16yr old at the time) for a single storey or part ground floor part upper addon, including
re locate laundry to rear of new building.
Add master Bed room with en-suite
Add study
Add living room.
Strip existing Laundry and re model into walk in Pantry(shelving, cupboards, electrical included for pantry, not rest of kitchen)

Includes electrical fitting to new rooms.
Includes light, bathroom, kitchen cupboard fitting to match existing (old/tired)

Does not include
Floor coverings to non wet areas
renovation of existing house (kitchen, bathroom, walls to be moved/removed not required for extension)
excavation of land to allow extension (extra $25k with retaining walls)
Any provision for a garage.(brick garage to match house was quoted as $48-65k)
removal and re install of central heating if adding second storey.

One kicker was that they wouldn't match any new fittings if we decided to replace them with the extension. So if we wanted to update the tap ware, cupboard handles or light fitting they would fit the ones to match the old stuff, then we would have to replace them ALL.

Also we would have needed to move out for at least 3 months of a proposed 9 month build.

Kitchen renovation was priced at an additional $17k plus appliances to change from a "U" shaped to a "L" shape with island bench. No stone included.

Total costs.
$238,000 for extension
$25,000 excavation and retain
$5,000 floor coverings
$17,000 kitchen upgrade
$6,000 appliances
$3,000 remove and re fit heating
$x,xxx Rent
$2,000 new fitting for bathroom, new door handles through out.

= $296k (no garage remember)


We are about to start our knock down re build this month (house is about to be pulled down in Jan)and the total cost of our new 31sq house including garage for 3 cars is less than the extension price if we got evap cooling instead of refrigerated and opted for a lower grade of appliances (the ones we ot offered were OK but I wanted Bosch ones)


If you can Owner build you'll save money, but you really need to have the spare time to start with.


All in all to knock down a 2 1/2 BR brick veneer on a slab and re build a 288m2 4 BR 2 bath house with 3 car garage is costing $310k

on top will be landscaping, but the numbers work out about the same by the time you factor in there was no garage with the extension (or room to put one based on the house position and proposed build works.) or kitchen upgrades from existing.

debplus3 debplus3
-with that many changes are you better of "starting again"


Perhaps.

Think about how much of the house you won't be renovating (for us 1 bath, 3 beds and 1 living) and think about what you might want to replace later on and how much it will cost you.

You might get nicer fittings in the new bathroom and want others to match. You'll have to buy s those later.

debplus3 debplus3
is the cost to renovate to that extent close to the cost of a rebuild?


In my case it was very close, perhaps cheaper. If I add up all of the things we didn't get included in the extension and add things like refrigerated air co and new heating, it would be way cheaper to knock down and re build.

I think the new build comes in at $310k and the proposed extension with all extras was $360k with garage, appliances, etc


I will now submit my claim for longest post on H1


Oh and Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee 1k posts

Author:  Stewie D [ Oct 26, 2011 2:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

All good advice.
I'd say 20% of my clients weigh up their options after I've drawn plans or given them an estimate and don't do the big reno especially when you get over $400,000.
One case in point is a local real estate agent I know who is halfway through a big renovation and extension that is looking so far at $700,000 ( pool as well ).
Prior to the work he estimated his place was worth $1.3 to 1.4 million.
After it is finished he reckons it will be worth around $2 to $2.1
I know of several others who have spent a lot of money but only got two thirds or less of their money back regarding capital investment before and after.
You just have to weigh up your options regarding reno or rebuild.
I'd get a builder in to give you a quick quote just to see what they reckon even if you pay them for their time.

Stewie

Author:  dstme [ Oct 26, 2011 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

Wow.....Now I really have to re-think what I'm going to do with my house. Really appreciate you guys for giving great info and advice on the renovation.

Not only I have to triple my effort putting my spare changes to my piggy bank but to weight in on whether re-building the whole place or just extension on the 2nd floor. Plus I need to find a very reasonable builder, draftsman and structural engineer for the job.

If not I may get a run-down place and build from scratch. It's really a though decision. ::dizzy::

Author:  dstme [ Oct 26, 2011 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

Do we need a Australia qualified draftsman or architect for any council submission?
If not, I could save heap for my architect friend works in Singapore and they charge much less compare to Australia.

Author:  Stewie D [ Oct 27, 2011 8:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

" Do we need a Australia qualified draftsman or architect for any council submission? "

No, but he does need to know the local council regulations, BCA regs and some state laws as well to make sure the DA goes through.

Stewie

Author:  chrisandkate [ Oct 27, 2011 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: $50,000 and $500,000 renovation question?

dstme dstme
but to weight in on whether re-building the whole place or just extension on the 2nd floor.


What you can do is the following:

Work out how much room you will be building by removing the top level and re building that (I'll list an example below)

Then work out how much area your lower level is and add the 2 together.

Example:

New top floor = 80m2

80 x 2750(low end of costing for extension) = $220000

If your bottom level is 120m2 then you total area would be 200m2

If you work with a figure of $1150m2 (which is what house will come in at) a new house would cost you around $230000

Remember that your new level is going to cost $220k and you haven't touched the lower level at all. And it looked like you were going to do new kitchen and bathroom + remove walls. That will IMO add at at least $50k to the job if you have to pay for someone else to do it all.


dstme dstme
Plus I need to find a very reasonable builder, draftsman and structural engineer for the job.


Usually you can get the builder to do all of the drafting and engineering. Its really only worth the hassle if you plan on owner building as each builder will have people they like to use and get a standard list of drawing from.

dstme dstme
If not I may get a run-down place and build from scratch. It's really a though decision. ::dizzy::


Just to get some perspective:

The house I knocked down was 18yrs old and there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. In fact I was told by a few people that I was stupid, greedy and just trying to be a show off by knocking it down. They didn't believe the sh1t that you have to go through to get quotes for extensions and the actual cost of them. I'm pretty sure one of our "friends" didn't think that building codes or permits actually exist and its just a council rort.

It was just too small for us and we loved the area and street we were in. The cost of extending was more (after all factors were put together) than knocking down and rebuilding.

Regardless of how good your current building is, you need to look at the cost of your extension + renovation of existing areas + maintenance of the existing structure going forward.

Maintenance was a big factor for us as all of the companies we spoke to would only put like existing (i.e old and need replacing anyway) for the new extension. If we replaced the rest of the house with new fittings they would charge extra to match the new extension fittings.

I cannot stress this enough:

Spend some time working out how much area the new top level will cover and how much area your existing lower level covers

Do some figures (or send them to me and I'll give you a guide to work with) and see where you look like being at financially before you get your heart set on anything.

This will be a big decision purely from a money standpoint let alone emotions.

You'll have to spend some money and you're better off just marking it as burnt and a necessary cost than trying to scrimp and save on the early costs. Trust me it won't even matter at the end of the project.


I'll see if I can put together a quick spread sheet for you to compare and add up potential costs on both sides of the coin. Keep an eye on your PM inbox.

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