Just outta interest...when you decide to refuse the floor covering and get them done yourself afterwards...did you encounter any problems such as not being able to remove the skirting boards from the wall without damaging them or the walls, so that the wood flooring can go underneath?

If the skirting is removed..then doesn't it mess up the paint/walls?

Thanks
TC

Hey TC,

Unfortunately the only drawback with doing the flooring after, is that they have that edging around the floorboards. We asked if the house could be handed to us without skirtings (so that the flooring people could do their thing then we get somebody to put the skirtings on) but PD said they can't hand the house over 'incomplete'.

Anyway, I was a little disappointed that we will have this edging around the skirtings but at the end of the day, I'd rather save $7k on flooring.

I am told that some builders will leave the skirtings off .. unfortunately PD is not one of them.

Amber

Hi all,
Have tumbled across this thread and we are in building with PD ( has not actually started any construction) I'm a bit confused about the skirking bit. We are not having the carpets being done by PD. I'm asking does the carpet look any different if its laid after the skirting. Which is laid first ? what about timber flooring ?

Regards

Kwhy

Hi kwhy,

We have everything ready to go with PD but just waiting on land release and site start should hopefully be November.

Somebody with some building knowledge may be able to assist further with the carpet v skirting question but we are getting the same people to do the carpet and the timber floors after we take possession of the house. I'm not sure what edging goes with the carpet when the skirting is down, but the timber flooring has a small piece of timber butted against the skirting board. Some people hate it .. others don't mind it.

Personally I would prefer it without this piece of timber (whatever it's called .. maybe Builda can help with terminology) but as I said earlier, I'd rather save the $$$.

Hi Amber,

I truely hope that your building project goes well. But did you ask PD if they had any building disputes lodged against them?

My husband and I built our home with PD and were supposed to move in around March 2005. Because of a dispute with the brick work, we were forced to have to hire an independant inspector, which ended up turning into having to hire a solicitor. My husband and I and our 4 children eventually moved in Nov 2006. We lodged a complaint with VCAT and tried to get PD to retify the issues that were of a structural and asthetic concern without having to go to a hearing. Alas, this did not eventuate and in April 2006, had a hearing infront of a tribunal memberat VCAT. We ended up winning our case and PD were ordered to demolish all unrendered brickwork, which was 3 sides of our double story home and rebuild.

I am writing this to you from our tiny unit that we have had to move into whilst this work is being done. So you can say that I am having my home built - a SECOND time with PD as it was not done correctly the first time. Even demolishing the brickwork has uncovered other issues that we are currently working through.

Please log onto the VCAT website at www.vcat.vic.gov.au and select the decisions bar tool. Follow the link to the decisions and in the search field, type in Barrett Property Group. Have a really good read of the whole case.

I would strongly recommend that you hire an independant inspector that will inspect at each stage and is not affilliated with PD at all. We used Kevin McDonald at New Home Inspections, who is exceptional at what he does and know the BCA inside out.

Should you converse with anyone else who is building with ANY builder, please let them know about our ordeal that is still going. I really don't want anyone to go through what my family have had to endure. Our dream home has turned into a nightmare.

All this from "Australia's most Professional Builder" It has been very disappointing, especially knowing that the problems were pointed out at a very early stage and were not addressed.

Let me know what you think.

Regards

Joanne

Hey Joanne,

Well firstly, it's a good thing that I had a few glasses of red before reading your post ... it filled me with a great deal of dread!! It's really awful to hear things like what has happened to you ... they say building or buying a home is the great Australian dream, and it is an absolute tragedy to hear stories like yours.

I'm hoping that your story is in the minority and not the majority ... and (not that it helps you at all) but from a lot of the research I've done, it appears you are in the minority. As I said, no comfort to you whatsoever.

I have never owned a home before and I am filled with excitement and fear - and not just fear from the amount of money I have to repay!! Hearing your story makes me wonder whether we have done the right thing, but again I'm just hoping that we are able to get through the process with as few scratches as possible.

As with everybody, we of course only get given names of referees that have had a great experience so thanks for pointing me in the direction of the website. I'll take a look - not that it will do anything at this late stage but I will certainly be very very wary as each stage progresses.

Fortunately my father is a builder (old style so can't stand the 'new' builders that tend to cut corners) so he will be brought in to inspect the home on a regular basis.

Anyway ... thanks again for sharing your story. I really hope that it works out in the end for you. Look forward to hearing updates with regards to the second try of building!!

Amber

Just a suggestion if you do not want the quad around your skirting boards after laying a timber floor.

Why not remove the skirting boards before laying the floor. Sure this will damage the wall but then replace the skirting boards with a higher skirting which will hide the damage and also looks pretty classy.

HI Joanne, I was just wondering what are the costs of getting a building inspector to assess each stage of the building.

Hi Joanne

I have read the full VCAT decision and can only comment that what you have gone through is a total discrace and unfortunatly indicative of the building industry in Victoria.

Builders advertisments and show homes often have no relationship with the final product you are presented with. To blind Freedy it was obvious that the brick work on your house was defective yet the builder surveyor allows the builder to do nothing. Whilst advertising quality homes Porter Davis refuses to fix your defective house and your only resort is to go to VCAT. I expect you approached BACV and the Building Commission only to be told to go to VCAT.

What were your costs in doing this (at least $30,000 I'd expect) not counting the stress of the whole process. You are not along in what you have faced. Read the posts of "Burned" or seach Hansard for the case of Lisa who built with Prentice Homes and spent $88,000 in legal fees and reports in her case with Prentice Homes. In all cases the Government agencies knew of the problems and did nothing. Read Hansard 17 November 2004 for a real case analysis on one of Australias's "Most Awarded Builders".

Would you ever build again?

Hi Noddy,

Thankyou so much for your kind words of compassion and understanding. Yes my family and I have been through hell and we cannot claim any sort of pain and suffering. Going to VCAT has been costly, approx $50,000.00. It is a disgrace that engineers/surveyors/builders are able to get away with this sort of deceit. Not many people would have the finances and the patience to go all the way that we did. It was a gamble to do, but one that had to be taken, as our childrens safety was at risk and this was not a risk my husband and I were willing to take. We are extremely happy and proud of the decision that Senior Member Walker set down and the building works are almost complete. Hopefully by the end of the month we will be back in our home.

One thing we are extremely happy with is that our decision was classified as "as significant as Bellgrove and Eldridge", which is a case often referred to in building disputes. We only hope and prey that our determination and drive will help others to find the strength to challenge these builders that think they can bully the everyday taxpayer and get away with it. We are determined to help as many people as we can avoid going through what we have had to endure.

Do you have any suggestions in how we can challenge these governing bodies to crack down on these builders?

Regards

Joanne.

HiBozmans Blues,

A building inspector should cost around the $1,500.00 mark. Try Kevin at New Home Inspections, as he was the man that helped us out. Tell him Joanne & Gotch gave you his number.

Regards

Joanne

Hi Joanne

Yes I fully understand and can assure you that you are not alone in what you have gone through and hopefully you have established a legal precident within the VCAT system which will make it easier for other consumers.

My observation of the system from our own experiance and others we know is as follows;

The standard HIA building contract that most large builders use does not make clear provision to withhold progress payments for defective work. It would appear that so long as the work is done progress payments must be made. If the owner is not satisfied with the work the only recourse is VCAT.

Even though the builder may be in clear breach of contract as to time, quality, standards etc the only recourse is again through VCAT. If recourse was available in say the Magistrates Court the only reference would be the contract terms and those under the Building Act. Generally this woud see a resolution sooner and at much lower cost.

The VCAT system is designed to find compromise which generally means that even if the builder is in clear breach you as the customer are expected to compromise by accepting something less than you have contracted for. The VCAT system is both lengthy and expensive in that you are expected to go through several stages before arriving at a full hearing (something that would not happen if you could take your case to another court).

The VCAT system is open to abuse by large builders with legal fees that are tax deductable, bulk buying discounts of their legal council and their deeper pockets. A builder can simply refuse to compromise and force the customer into a situation where the weight of their lawyers bills reach a point where they have to accept a poor settlement. Refer to Hansard and Glenvill and Prentice Homes for examples of this.

There is also the issue of the independence of building surveyers. Whilst they are ment to be looking after your interests they are paid by the builder and the builders business may represent a substantial % of their turnover. There is a clear conflict of interest. Again read Hansard for the case of the Nicholson & Wright employee who was dismissed/resigned over a Glenvill home.

Then of course there is the builders warranty insurance that insures you for nothing.

All of these faults are a result of policies but in place by the current government which I expect are reluctant to admit that there are many failures within the system. When they state the small percentage of building contracts which experiance major problems it unfortunatly is of little comfort to those of us which are within that percentage.

...So let me get this right...even if I was to hire an Independent Building Inspector to inspect construction of my home, this would still not guarantee satisfactory completion. And that the best I could get out of the inspector would be an alert to flaws in the actual building of the home.

It is then up to myself to take it up with the building company and have it fixed, which is still not guaranteed according to what I'm reading (i.e. there is no current standard in which builders are supposed to abide by when building homes?)

The whole process seems fundamentally flawed.

Yes and No. No there are building standards that builders must adhere to and yes it is up to you to bring the builders attention to the flaws and have them fix them. Unfortunatly as you will read on this forum builders do not always fix the defects and the Building Commission tends not to enforce the codes. Our builder all but ignored our inspection report.

Hi, we have recently signed up with Porter Davis to build our home outside of their 'designated' area' (they went to check out our land location and confirmed they can build there for an extra fee of 3000,-). The building will start in February 2007 and I am curious if anyone else in this forum is starting to build around the same time to exchange ideas and experiences of the process.
Also, did you know that PD is about to finish their latest design - it is apparently scheduled to open on the first weekend of November in Keysborough. There is no pricing on this home yet but it should come in 46 and 50sq. The actual layout (we were priviledged enough to go through it during its lock up stage) is fantastic, it has 2 master bedrooms (one downstairs, one upstairs as a 'guest suite'). I think 5 (or 6?) bedrooms in total...
Their whole new style seems to go 'country' and I love the fact that they are introducing more timeless features (blackwood kitchen etc.).
Currently waiting for their pricing on this home...

Hi, we are also building with Porter Davis commencing Feb 07 in Tarneit. Interested in exchanging ideas and experiences. We are off to the tender appointment next week, and to date I am trying to get some 'free carpet and tiles'' removed in exchange for a structual change. If they won't come to the party, I will probably need to upgrade the carpet and tiles as I am not really interested in 100% nylon carpet. Does anyone have experience in the upgrade costs? Also thinking of upgrading tiles to timber flooring.

we're building with PD aswell. It's start on March 07 (i think). We're going to have the tiles appointment this monday, and we have no idea how they going to charge the tiles. Anyone know how good is their category 1 tiles?

and we also going for colour, electrical n other stuff next thursday. we've been to the showroom few times and we noticed that the good tapware (the one we like, it could be subjective though) is always an upgrade. and then the lady there told us that they can't give us the pricing until the tender stage. it's kinda hold us back as we don't want to fall into their traps.



uncle_ant: how do you manage to get the "free carpet and tiles" ?

Hi Intoxicated

The free carpet and tiles was part of a promotion they were running only on the Francis 26 that we decided to purchase. We made our descision at the right time, as we also got free flyscreens, brick infills over the windows, and a stone benchtop (for an extra fee, but reduced).

We have been to the interior showroom and discovered that the free cat 1 carpet is 100% nylon. This does not interest us, and I have asked for the carpet and tiles freebies be exchanged for a mod on the house (which they did).

This is our second home, and we decided to do our own flooring afterwards. NOTE: I have read in other posts that they charge quite a bit for flooring, you may want to get your floor plan and get some independant quotes.

From what I know, they must supply the house to you with the 'wet area' tiled - bathroom(s) and laundry. You could be free to arrange your own tiling / flooring in all other areas if you wished.

We are off to the colour appointment next Friday, followed by Tender the same day.

So far, we have found PD excellent to deal with and hope it continues. Have heard some horror stories with other builders, and at least one about PD in this forum.

Good luck

Mmmmm .. just a word of warning to newbies to the building industry like myself. I love PD ... we all know that .... but we have just been through a bit of a horror period with them re. the flooring.

Since the start of the process we have always said that they would not do the flooring as they are too expensive ... which is fine .... so our CLO kept saying 'just leave it in your contract with a note saying to remove it prior to handover and we will give you an allowance for it'. Sounds good to us! Bank has valued the house ... given approval .. yada yada yada but the most recent hitch is that PD don't give 'allowances' for the carpet therefore they had to give us a variation to remove the flooring, which subsequently means that the bank want to revalue the property.

Therefore an additional few hundred dollars extra for fees all because we are putting something into the house that is CHEAPER than what the builder could do (better quality too mind you) PLUS it meant that with the money we saved on flooring, we got quotes on putting the ducted air con.

If I was a bank it's a no brainer that we are adding more value (at the same price) by having the air con installed as well as better flooring so why do we need to have it revalued!!

Anyway .. .sorry for the vent. Just a bit annoyed that the whole time PD were saying one thing that wasn't actually true.

So PD people .. beware. Other than that ...still love them ))

Amber

http://ourdreamhouse.blogspot.com/

HI AMBER!

Checked out your blog what a good idea, now I can keep tabs on your house as well.
Excellent!

My other half’s got a motor bike, nothing like yours though, his looks like something “Batman” would ride. Now if he got one like yours I might think about getting on it!
It looks very comfortable.

Good to see you so excited about your home….enjoy and have fun!